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Old 04-14-2012, 12:12 AM   #46
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

I wouldn't compare SFH to an advanced calculus book, but coming from you, that's very flattering. I'm very appreciative.

I think your take on my personal video analyses vs. SFH is dead on.

Quote:
in SFH, Jon focuses more on what HE would focus on and think about, as if he were playing the various sessions himself. We get a faithful snapshot of HIS thought process in a wide variety of different real game (and metagame) situations.
This is a clearer way of describing what I touched on in post #44 ("I like to think of the student videos as a mechanism that allows me to discuss a variety of NLHE situations in a free-flowing format.").

Thanks again. Gonna email you in a minute.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:54 PM   #47
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Product Review; Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

The Knowledge Fallout

In the aftermath of the explosion in poker education, it is difficult for one to predetermine the least inefficient route to becoming a better player. Not only has a desolation been overrun by a cavalcade, but everyone in the procession trumpets their particular offering’s superlatives. No organizing, much less reputable, clerk is to be found. Former CardRunners instructor Jonathan Tannen is marketing, to my knowledge, something entirely unique. This isn’t something completely different mind you, in the tradition of Python (though you wouldn’t know it from its title), but rather a collection of materials bundled into a tidily cross-referenced package.

The wordy Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker retails at 500USD and combines aspects of personal coaching sessions with hardcopy materials one would expect from a book. Smashing contains three student-narrated videos of play at 50nl, 100nl, and 200nl, all six-max. These are accompanied by three PDFs with Tannen’s detailed, time-stamped analysis of the footage. The intensely scrutinized leak-finders constitute the bulk of the package’s value, but are reinforced by ten stand-alone articles, whose topics range from playing exploitable versus game theory optimal poker, to conditions conducive to triple barreling.

While there are only two folders to download with material organized into subfolders, the nature of the medium means this is no book to be read front to back. Hence some degree of organization is left to the buyer, though the author has gone to lengths to make it accessible, including step by step instructions on the best way to proceed. Overall the material, thankfully, is not quite as unwieldy as its title. Tannen recommends printing out materials (or having them on a second monitor) while watching the video footage. Often the notes reference the strategy articles or previous spots. Our humble reviewer, lacking an accessible printer, first chose the alt-tab route. I can therefore by way of comparison conclude that, yes, printing out the articles and following the author’s instructions will serve one well.

Tannen does scatter some attempts at humour through the materials. I was slightly worried all would be lost on me – but there is an uncannily redemptive quality to a Curb Your Enthusiasm reference.

Agglomerating Ideas

For the level of player Smashing is marketed towards, the great theoretical revelations are by and large past. It strikes me that leak-finding material does not have revolutionary aspirations, but is meant, by presenting the vicissitudes of real play, to spark inspiration in the student’s game which might otherwise had been difficult for either the student or the teacher to locate. I would not abnegate this strength of the leak-finding format because it wasn’t me playing -- the players in question got into instructive spots I would not have.

One pertinent example occurred when one hero did not three-bet pocket nines in blind versus blind where I would have comfortably three-bet in order to five-bet all-in on one hundred big blind stacks. As it happens I am acquainted with the small blind initial raiser from the CardRunners forums and having worked with him a little over Skype. The hero – with none of that shared history – decided to simply flat call. What resulted was a single raised pot I would have never found myself in.

I can tell you I spent over two hours analyzing this hand through a synthetic method I used for the entirety of the footage. I first watched the tape while listening to the hero’s reasoning, then I typed up what I thought were the best decisions to make, after which I read Tannen’s analysis, which led to me combining his thoughts with mine wherever they were not superseded entirely. In the case of the pocket nines hand, I talked out a couple points with a friend and further reflected on it during a train ride. Smashing provoked real contemplation.

No Pot Left Behind

The footage contains many forgotten pots that the author refreshingly gives full treatment. I imagine I am not unique among players in having a propensity to examine the big pots, or the spots that could lead to big pots. This is surely a disservice to the small pots who, with their wider and more variable ranges, are worthy of dissection by virtue of their accumulation. Multi-way pots, limped pots, small blind completions, and leading all received cogent analysis that was eye opening at times.

On the spectrum of defending three-bets out of position on 100bb stacks the author leans towards four-betting out of position as opposed to having a calling range (sizing dependent). On the question of three-bet/folding for value Tannen leans towards the opinion that very specific circumstances are needed to obtain for this play to be optimal. In a similar vein Tannen advocates four-bet/calling with AQ/AK over calling a three-bet in position, the overwhelming amount of the time. None of these are contrary to the current state of poker theory and knowledge regarding playing the button and the cut-off in 100bb six-max cash. But they are of a certain view in what is a running conversation. I think it is inevitable that one finds reason to disagree with some of the analyses made. What’s important is that Tannen avoids common pitfalls, whether it be resting an argument on laurels, or presenting potentially specious reasoning in an obfuscating manner. Things are well reasoned. The reasons are provided in point or at great length in a referenced source.

The Full Package

Part and parcel are the ten articles Tannen has included in the package. One can purchase these articles as stand-alone products from his website for $75, but as mentioned, they reinforce the leak-finders by way of embedded reference. Articles perhaps isn’t the best word to describe all ten, documents would often be superior. I am referring to the PDF on suggested HUD layout, for example, which is nothing more than a litany of stats. That is not to say these things aren’t valuable. Surely players struggle with constructing their personal HUDs. Worth mentioning are the 2p2 posts to which Tannen hyperlinks in the PDFs, some of which are article-worthy themselves and formatted more or less as such. These are of course free resources available to anyone, but rooting around for first-rate 2p2 posts, suffice to say, can be a needle in a haystack affair.

A further inclusion in the package is a 30 minute Skype session with the author, whose subject matter is left entirely to the purchaser. I chose to spend this time picking Jon’s brain on specific pre-flop and post-flop concepts. I had issue with his treatment of three-bet folding for value as well as four-bet calling a hand such as AQ. Jon acquitted himself quite well in the discussion and gave me good reason to believe I had been formulating the issues imprecisely.

As mentioned Tannen has included various humourous tidbits, easter eggs as it were, that provide a touch of personality to a collection of otherwise dry, sturdy documents. These may not add value for everyone, but probably don’t detract value for anyone. During the weeks I have been working with Smashing, the author was available through email for the one point of technological assistance I had needed, a point that was resolved quickly and easily.

What’s in a price?

At the least, more than a name, since the former can render the fragrant noxious quite proportionally. And certainly no one will mistake a 500USD price tag for olfactory ecstasy. I think it is reasonably unclear whether Smashing is well priced. One reason for this is that the market for this exact style of product did not formerly exist.

An argument has been loosely forwarded that, if independent, ebook type materials were of such value at the high prices they are offered then 2p2 publishing would lose substantial business. This is quite far from persuasive; the material 2p2 puts out is catered to an incomparably wider audience than Smashing. Moreover, it is not even a comparable product. Both running shoes and barbells improve your fitness when mixed with a little sweat, but no consumer buys one as opposed to the other. If the 2p2 books are walking tours, Smashing is a callisthenic routine. Purchasing a 2p2 title over Smashing is unlikely, despite a twenty fold reduction in price, by virtue of the fact that anyone buying a 2p2 no limit title is likely unsuited for Smashing and would presumably be dissuaded, if from no one but the author himself.

Whether the price is optimized for author revenue is unclear. But for the player looking to improve, the calculation is simply whether one’s monetary and temporal investment in the materials is profitable when compared to other potential avenues of study. Your reviewer thought as much.

Dost thou attend me?

Who is Smashing designed for? In a conversation with Tannen he agreed that few, if any 10nl or 25nl players are likely at a level where they would be able to enjoy benefits from it. It is indeed made for a “niche market” of players eyeing success at the 200nl and 400nl levels.

The fact is that these materials are targeted towards players winning, or close to winning, at their current six-max stake, whether that stake is 50nl, 100nl, or 200nl, and who want to get incrementally better every day. That already excludes the vast majority of players. Tannen is offering a commodity that is scarce; highly detailed analysis from a winning player who has taken the time to make his thoughts accessible and lucid. With the pace of hold’em innovation the half-life of the product is anyone’s guess. I am inclined to believe it will be relatively long, since Tannen’s foundation is mathematical. Break even fold rates aren’t going to vacillate over time.

Having purchased considerable personal coaching (think low four figures), watched hundreds of training videos, and read perhaps a dozen books, not to mention having consumed all the forum posts, articles, podcasts, and other free materials available on the web that I have, it seems to me that I am qualified to, at the least, not pass over the matter of the price in silence. It seems to me that is the responsibility of the customer to ensure that he or she gets sufficient value out of the package. It may very well be the case that someone purchases Smashing for $500 and receives $100 of value from it.

The good news is that one can, through diligence, make this an investment worth more than the retail price. That’s the best type of poker material with which to expand one’s game, the kind with value as a function of the labour one invests in absorbing it. As I stated I have spent two hours reviewing one hand played in the footage and I have come away with that analysis feeling much clearer on certain points with regards to no limit play. I think that in the hands of a motivated player, Smashing can pay for itself, but only given substantial personal investment.

Parting Thoughts

In a previous review, I may have been a bit harsh in my characterization of the author's writing as rough. Indeed it strikes me that writing well might be the last skill one should expect a poker player to naturally possess. So in that way Tannen should also receive praise, for his gravitation towards clear and organized prose. Holding a reader’s attention is hard enough. Imparting new concepts is difficult. The points themselves are concise, but there are often a half dozen of them. And in the course of a few hours of footage, as is to be expected, numerous situations present themselves, making for lengthy analysis. Thus Tannen achieves concision without brevity. How enviable!

Though the mechanism of studying the materials is cumbersome at times, this is only by nature of working with assorted documents, not for a lack of organization by the author. While I cannot recommend the package to those with limited study time, whether due to a lack of commitment, or because of other commitments, I can recommend it to those who are looking to invest hours off the table to improve their game. What you’ll find is lengthy concision, provoking points, new ideas, and clarifying arithmetic.

Whether this style of product catches on is fairly unclear, it gives up something to a book’s linearity and something to a live coaching session’s intimacy. I can see the less zealous buying it and letting it sit on their desktops unexamined or opening it up a couple times and leaving it unfinished. That’s really the danger in investing in a product like this – it could become that dusty exercise apparatus, levers unpulled. But so is the way of all flesh; toil can reward.

--

This review appeared originally in my CardRunners blog.

Last edited by GarethChantler; 05-15-2012 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:33 AM   #48
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Well, I promised myself I would do a follow up, so here goes.

It's a tough follow up to write, because I could tell SFH was working and making me a better player, so I kind of planned to post my old, pre-SFH breakeven graph next to my new, slightly winning post-SFH graph and let the results speak for themselves. That didn't work out, because if I posted the graph, you'd think I was lying.

I spent the first part of April playing NL50 and absorbing everything in SFHiYCD. By the end of April I had made several changes in my game: I branched out among several sites to find the best action, and started playing more shorthanded and heads up poker. I hadn't played short much before, but SFHiYCD gave me a huge confidence boost in thinking through complex situations and varied ranges and spots, so I just went with it.

May was a five figure month for me, the first I've ever had in poker (by a long shot). June is trending in that direction as well. I have gone from barely holding my own at NL50 to being a player regs avoid at NL200 and NL400.

I spoke about this at length with Jon, and we both agreed that it would be silly to claim SFH was the source of all of that epic run. It was kind of a perfect storm of game selection, increased skill (from SFH), run good, and confidence that gave me the biggest month in poker I've ever had.

All that said, I do think SFHiYCD was a crucial part of giving me those wins.

The big thing about poker literature, I think, is that a good poker player is not necessarily a good communicator, so there's always a bit of doubt. I can buy Harrington on Hold'em, but will it really teach me how to play like Dan Harrington? I can buy Play Poker Like the Pros, but is it really going to get me twelve bracelets?

This is where SFHiYCD really shines for me. Jon is a winning player, and after really absorbing all the material, I really feel I have the ability to play like Jon. I almost feel bad for him, as I don't really know where he could go with a follow up title, as I really feel he poured every drop of wisdom and insight he had into this material. SFHiYCD is definitely not some phoned-in title just trying to make a buck.

A few months later, I am also finding SFHiYCD makes for a good re-watch. Even after I know the material, some poker books sit on my shelf and collect dust, but a select few get pulled out again and again whenever I find myself in need of a "refresher course." SFHiYCD is one of the titles that definitely stands out.

The biggest thing I think I got from Jon's work is a genuine feeling of confidence and control. I'm now able to know, even pre-flop, what my plan is going to be on a variety of flops, turns, and rivers. I'm rarely surprised at the tables anymore, and I almost never think, "How the **** did I get here?" (A common problem I had prior to reading.)

I can't say how much Jon's book has made me, directly. I can say with confidence, however, that it has made me well more than its purchase price, and that lets me recommend it wholeheartedly .
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:34 AM   #49
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by starvingwriter82 View Post
It's a tough follow up to write, because I could tell SFH was working and making me a better player, so I kind of planned to post my old, pre-SFH breakeven graph next to my new, slightly winning post-SFH graph and let the results speak for themselves. That didn't work out, because if I posted the graph, you'd think I was lying.
Well, as they say in BBV: "graphs or it didn't happen"
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:55 PM   #50
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Love View Post
Well, as they say in BBV: "graphs or it didn't happen"


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Note graph is not 100% accurate as not every site I play on has HHs available, and this is actually a mash-up of about four different sites and three different currencies, and I think HM2 might be a bit generous on some of its currency conversions, but when playing on several sites without HM support and trying to mash them into one graph, this is the best I could come up with.

The graph covers from May 1 to June 14 or so.

According to HM, my AIEV bb/100 for this hand sample is 8.91/100. Yay for playing HU against whales.
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:56 PM   #51
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Fish on a heater IMO. Ban for shilling.

Thanks again for taking the time to post this. You obviously weren't obligated to do so.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:11 PM   #52
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

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Originally Posted by tannenj View Post
Fish on a heater IMO.
No doubt. I'll take it though. Any time someone starts out a poker story with "So I played this hand really well...." you know they lost money.

I have no shame, I will take all the good luck I can get.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:33 PM   #53
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Ha, I was of course messing around, but perhaps we can settle on "good player on a heater?" Seems accurate to me based on the info. I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw
I almost feel bad for him, as I don't really know where he could go with a follow up title, as I really feel he poured every drop of wisdom and insight he had into this material.
I appreciate this, but luckily for me, I never had any plans to release a follow-up title. This was always the only way this thing was going to get written; I'm an "all or nothing" type of guy. Besides, writing the thing nearly killed me. I went from ~6', 160 lbs (underweight) to ~145 lbs (dangerously underweight) from writing obsessively all day for months and hardly eating. Writing can be done healthily, obviously, but apparently not by me. For several months, it's fair to say that I was a starving writer (not because I was poor; because I was obsessive ).

I'm now ~175 lbs and shooting for another ~10. SS/GoMaD FTW. lol degeneracy-induced weight varianceaments. Ship the bulk. I think I'll try to be healthy from now on.
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:06 AM   #54
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

First off, I want to apologize for taking so long to write this review. I remembered writing one before but completely forgot that I meant to write a final review when I finished going through the product.

I'm not going to start off by telling you what SFHiYCD is. You already know what it consists of. SFHiYCD is a product that emphasizes that every spot in poker is important. It makes sure you are constantly thinking of all of your options. For example, one thing I thought that was great in Jon's product was that he doesn't neglect any situation. By this I mean, say you are watching the video and there is an open and the hero elects to fold a marginal hand. If you missed a spot to 3bet Jon will point that out. Or if it folds to us on the button and you fold your J4s but should have opened, Jon will point that out. I found this to be particularly good because we are unable to improve areas that we don't know are wrong with our game. You would never bring a hand to a coaching session where a certain player raised utg and you fold A4s on the button but Jon's product points out what I like to call these "unknown leaks." Once you realize that you might be missing out on profitable plays in one spot your thinking will change and you will be able to apply similar concepts to other spots.

Additionally, Jon provides extensive commentary on almost every hand that the hero elects to play. He takes the analysis a step further than most other coaches. Not only will he tell you if he thinks that you should bet the flop, for example. He will also tell you why and explain it through the use of combinatorics and mathematics. He then also gives advice on how he would treat all sorts of different board runouts as opposed to merely the runout that occurs in the hand. It is obviously important to have a plan at the start of the hand and not to just be quickly making decisions on the fly. He teaches the importance of planning hands and going with your reads.

I think that SFHiYCD is a product applicable from players ranging from the microstakes to midstakes. Microstakes player will be able to use it to help themselves build fundamentals, and better understand the game. Additionally the strategy articles will help give them an understanding of basic ranges and provide mathematical insight as to why certain plays are good and others are not. Midstakes players will already be familiar with some of the concepts, and likely even disagree with some things. This is good as it causes the player to think "Why do Jon and I think differently in this spot? Can I improve my play by doing as he suggests?" And whether or not you conclude that your line or Jon's line works best it will have given you the opportunity to spend hours thinking about your game and your play. I also think they will be able to gain from fixing some of these "unknown leaks" and once you reach the level of a decent midstakes winner it is not the big "aha" moment that will improve your game but the small, seemingly insignificant plays that will provide the slight increase to your winrate.
If you have and questions feel free to contact me.
Matt
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:43 PM   #55
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by starvingwriter82 View Post
Well, I promised myself I would do a follow up, so here goes.

It's a tough follow up to write, because I could tell SFH was working and making me a better player, so I kind of planned to post my old, pre-SFH breakeven graph next to my new, slightly winning post-SFH graph and let the results speak for themselves. That didn't work out, because if I posted the graph, you'd think I was lying.

I spent the first part of April playing NL50 and absorbing everything in SFHiYCD. By the end of April I had made several changes in my game: I branched out among several sites to find the best action, and started playing more shorthanded and heads up poker. I hadn't played short much before, but SFHiYCD gave me a huge confidence boost in thinking through complex situations and varied ranges and spots, so I just went with it.

May was a five figure month for me, the first I've ever had in poker (by a long shot). June is trending in that direction as well. I have gone from barely holding my own at NL50 to being a player regs avoid at NL200 and NL400.

I spoke about this at length with Jon, and we both agreed that it would be silly to claim SFH was the source of all of that epic run. It was kind of a perfect storm of game selection, increased skill (from SFH), run good, and confidence that gave me the biggest month in poker I've ever had.

All that said, I do think SFHiYCD was a crucial part of giving me those wins.

The big thing about poker literature, I think, is that a good poker player is not necessarily a good communicator, so there's always a bit of doubt. I can buy Harrington on Hold'em, but will it really teach me how to play like Dan Harrington? I can buy Play Poker Like the Pros, but is it really going to get me twelve bracelets?

This is where SFHiYCD really shines for me. Jon is a winning player, and after really absorbing all the material, I really feel I have the ability to play like Jon. I almost feel bad for him, as I don't really know where he could go with a follow up title, as I really feel he poured every drop of wisdom and insight he had into this material. SFHiYCD is definitely not some phoned-in title just trying to make a buck.

A few months later, I am also finding SFHiYCD makes for a good re-watch. Even after I know the material, some poker books sit on my shelf and collect dust, but a select few get pulled out again and again whenever I find myself in need of a "refresher course." SFHiYCD is one of the titles that definitely stands out.

The biggest thing I think I got from Jon's work is a genuine feeling of confidence and control. I'm now able to know, even pre-flop, what my plan is going to be on a variety of flops, turns, and rivers. I'm rarely surprised at the tables anymore, and I almost never think, "How the **** did I get here?" (A common problem I had prior to reading.)

I can't say how much Jon's book has made me, directly. I can say with confidence, however, that it has made me well more than its purchase price, and that lets me recommend it wholeheartedly .
This is probably one of the most powerful reviews I have ever heard for any kind of poker product, whether it be coaching, books, courses, etc.

Despite my main game being SnGs, I will be purchasing this product.
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:01 AM   #56
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Do you think this will help with live poker? I assume it helps you with the correct way to think about poker even if 6max internet poker.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:32 AM   #57
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Hey,

Appreciate the question.

I think your best bet is to read the samples in my ad. I can't think of a better way to improve your understanding of the extent to which SFH would be a useful resource for a live player than to read a few thousand words that were lifted straight from its video analyses.

The candidate who stands to get the most bang for the buck from SFH is the serious online player who uses tracking software. This is the case because it's littered with HUD stats; I make no secret of my opinion of their utility.

However, I think it has quite a bit to offer to the serious live player as well.

Quote:
...it helps you with the correct way to think about poker even if 6max internet poker.
Yes, I like to think so. Of course, I'm biased; perhaps someone else with a more objective background will respond.

Good luck.
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Old 06-22-2012, 06:30 AM   #58
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

I do play live 5 or 6 days a week. I have played online up to 2/4 but only started to dabble on lower stakes online again this past month. I am going to buy the miniature package first and give it a try. Being able to learn from a big winning midstakes player pouring every thing into teaching us is too good to pass up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tannenj View Post
Hey,

Appreciate the question.

I think your best bet is to read the samples in my ad. I can't think of a better way to improve your understanding of the extent to which SFH would be a useful resource for a live player than to read a few thousand words that were lifted straight from its video analyses.

The candidate who stands to get the most bang for the buck from SFH is the serious online player who uses tracking software. This is the case because it's littered with HUD stats; I make no secret of my opinion of their utility.

However, I think it has quite a bit to offer to the serious live player as well.



Yes, I like to think so. Of course, I'm biased; perhaps someone else with a more objective background will respond.

Good luck.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:08 AM   #59
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Went ahead and purchased the mini package the reviews were too good to not get it. Look forward to getting started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolefan9 View Post
I do play live 5 or 6 days a week. I have played online up to 2/4 but only started to dabble on lower stakes online again this past month. I am going to buy the miniature package first and give it a try. Being able to learn from a big winning midstakes player pouring every thing into teaching us is too good to pass up.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:37 AM   #60
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Re: Smashing Fewer Holes in Your Computer Desk: Written Insights on Modern Internet Poker

Appreciate it. You've got mail.
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