Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Books and Publications Discussion and reviews of books, videos, and magazines. Sponsored by TwoPlusTwoStore.com.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-05-2016, 08:58 PM   #151
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,019
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eu.Era View Post
Mason

I'm not really sure what you are saying, are you implying the books you release evolve with the game? I think Harrington would have a brain aneurysm if you tried to explain GTO to him, does he still balance his range with his watch? harrington on online cash games is really bad.

Hand #24:

Hero has AdQd and the flop is KcJh6c. The question is how large a c-bet should be.

Author writes:

Quote:
This flop is semi-wet, but Hero has decent equity with an over card and gutshot. Moreover, Villian should be calling pre-flop with a decent number of pocket pairs, which have flopped poorly here.
Notice that this is a reason to bet small since pocket pairs only have two outs to a better hand.
You are manipulating bet size based on hand strength not your perceived range which is bad imo and very exploitable. How would you balance this?

Quote:
Hero's range is strong here given the position he opened from and how well he connects with the K and J on this flop. Hands such as [AA KK JJ 66 AK KQ KJs KTs] are strong and sizeable part.
Isn't this another reason to bet smaller since Hero won't want to lose his opponent? But yet Clarke recommends a larger c-bet. And most important he doesn't mention the idea that with this flop many good draws are available to Villian where you would want to bet large.

Lose his opponent? More like lose value if we bet small as you are suggesting. I kind of feel sorry for the author if he has to put up with much more than this i would would wager he has played more hands and has better results than you in online cash games? I would also wager you would get absolutely crushed in NL25 Zoom on pokerstars over 100k hands played in a month.
Eu.Era:

You're not reading correctly what I said (or perhaps I didn't make it clear). I'm not disagreeing with the advice. What I am saying is that the author gave an argument for a small bet even though he recommends a large one.

MM
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2016, 10:25 PM   #152
swoni
journeyman
 
swoni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 334
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Just got sent this, skimmed the book.

Understand its aimed at beginners so wont go too hard on it. But I'll just say TDAs' claim it could take you be be winning at 50nl is ludicrous.
swoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 11:25 AM   #153
TheDefiniteArticle
Indecisive
 
TheDefiniteArticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Polarizing my folding range
Posts: 13,466
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by swoni View Post
Just got sent this, skimmed the book.

Understand its aimed at beginners so wont go too hard on it. But I'll just say TDAs' claim it could take you be be winning at 50nl is ludicrous.
Needless to say, I disagree. Games at 50NL aren't that tough, especially with some table selection. While this won't give you a hugely refined strategy, it offers one which is sufficient to scrape at least 1-2bb/100 at 50NL (reg tables) on stars.
TheDefiniteArticle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 02:17 PM   #154
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,472
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by KissaOnSokea View Post
Just to make sure I am reading this correctly, are you now retracting your recommendation of this book to those who would like to improve their game?
obviously his not!

your first post on this site and you ask this?
no wonder....

troll much.
should be ban
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 03:47 PM   #155
Blunderer
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 391
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

It seems like a retraction, but unclear why based on the comments so far
Blunderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 03:56 PM   #156
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,019
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunderer View Post
It seems like a retraction, but unclear why based on the comments so far
No retraction was made.

MM
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 04:33 PM   #157
Carroters
enthusiast
 
Carroters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 96
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by swoni View Post
Just got sent this, skimmed the book.

Understand its aimed at beginners so wont go too hard on it. But I'll just say TDAs' claim it could take you be be winning at 50nl is ludicrous.
Totally disagree. With a bit of natural ability, logical competence and practice I believe this book is totally sufficient for beating 50NL, which is still full of regs who make very significant mistakes in my recent experiecne of coaching the limit, not to mention that 50NL is still a popular fish stake.

There are many people who will not beat 50NL after reading this book, but most aspiring players who read any book won't beat 50NL, this is just the nature of the game and how difficult it is to succeed after rake in the modern online environment. I maintain that TGM teaches the foundations in a very solid and applicable way and have had a lot of very positive feedback so far from a lot of players who play 25NL and 50NL.

Last edited by Carroters; 07-07-2016 at 04:40 PM.
Carroters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 04:36 PM   #158
Carroters
enthusiast
 
Carroters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 96
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle View Post
Needless to say, I disagree. Games at 50NL aren't that tough, especially with some table selection. While this won't give you a hugely refined strategy, it offers one which is sufficient to scrape at least 1-2bb/100 at 50NL (reg tables) on stars.
I don't like the idea of TGM being described as a book that suggets one basic simplified strategy. Sure somethings are simplified especially earlier on, but the idea is to provide a framework for thinking about strategy, not offering up any rigid or easy to swallow gameplan.
Carroters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 04:38 PM   #159
Carroters
enthusiast
 
Carroters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 96
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foosa View Post
On the page with the graphic showing short term EV versus long term EV, the numbers don't add up to $8. They add up to $7. Perhaps it's implied that there were more short term results then the ones shown, but not everyone can read in between the lines. In any of the ranges where you added 43s, you should swap it with 53s unless both are in the range. 53s makes the same number of straights as 43s since 432AK is not a straight, and you might as well have the higher card.
Thanks for pointing this out. The idea was to provide a random spread of sessions that represent a tiny subset of the total scattering of results. This comes far to close to being exactly $8 and could do with some clarification as it does look like an error.
Carroters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 05:28 PM   #160
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,019
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by swoni View Post
Just got sent this, skimmed the book.

Understand its aimed at beginners so wont go too hard on it. But I'll just say TDAs' claim it could take you be be winning at 50nl is ludicrous.
I want to point out that this may be a very good book for a lot of players. (I'm only 37 percent through it so can't yet say for sure.) However, if your opinion is different that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But to be fair to the author you should give specific reasons as to why you think the way you do.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2016, 05:41 PM   #161
TheDefiniteArticle
Indecisive
 
TheDefiniteArticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Polarizing my folding range
Posts: 13,466
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters View Post
I don't like the idea of TGM being described as a book that suggets one basic simplified strategy. Sure somethings are simplified especially earlier on, but the idea is to provide a framework for thinking about strategy, not offering up any rigid or easy to swallow gameplan.
Yes, apologies. To clarify, careful study of the book alone should provide a framework to beat 50NL, but that is not to downplay the instrumental merit thereof as a tool for going above and beyond that.
TheDefiniteArticle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2016, 06:08 PM   #162
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,019
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Something that I found interesting since I recently wrote a poker psychology book:

Early in the book the author writes;

Quote:
A good place to start is reading Jared Tendler's The Mental Game of Poker. This book is, in my opinion, the leading work for aiding the aspiring player on gradually strengthening his mental game over time.
But in his final thoughts on prefllop end of action spots he writes:

Quote:
Having a clear understanding of how to solve these situations will therefore stabilize your mental game to some extent and help keep confidence high.
Of course this second statement is correct and it contradicts much of what Tendler advocates.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 01:37 AM   #163
LektorAJ
Pooh-Bah
 
LektorAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: none
Posts: 5,808
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual



From the podcasts (I'm a big fan and have listened to all up to the latest one) Carroters believes in the conventional ideas about poker psychology, which I know MM doesn't.

I would like to see an experiment, where players in a cash game record their starting stack and whether they consider themselves to be playing their A, B or C game. If they feel that has changed (or was a mis-estimate) they can change at the end of a hand and record their current stack, but can't post hoc change the "level" of their game for a hand that's finished.

When people make an unconventional river call and are right they think "I'm on my A game" and when it's wrong they think "Why did I call, I'm on my C game", but that's just results oriented. An experiment would tell us whether the ABC game is a real thing (and how much effect it has), but conducting one seems not to be necessary to poker psychologists as poker psychology is a pseudoscience.

Having said that, I don't think we should criticise the book based on the fact that Carroters has drunk the same Kool Aid as almost every other single person in poker. For example I also highly recommend the work of Andrew Brokos who writes for the 2p2 magazine and also has a great podcast, but he also talks about the ABC game - though like everyone else not in hand analysis.
LektorAJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 04:09 AM   #164
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 10,019
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post


From the podcasts (I'm a big fan and have listened to all up to the latest one) Carroters believes in the conventional ideas about poker psychology, which I know MM doesn't.

I would like to see an experiment, where players in a cash game record their starting stack and whether they consider themselves to be playing their A, B or C game. If they feel that has changed (or was a mis-estimate) they can change at the end of a hand and record their current stack, but can't post hoc change the "level" of their game for a hand that's finished.

When people make an unconventional river call and are right they think "I'm on my A game" and when it's wrong they think "Why did I call, I'm on my C game", but that's just results oriented. An experiment would tell us whether the ABC game is a real thing (and how much effect it has), but conducting one seems not to be necessary to poker psychologists as poker psychology is a pseudoscience.

Having said that, I don't think we should criticise the book based on the fact that Carroters has drunk the same Kool Aid as almost every other single person in poker. For example I also highly recommend the work of Andrew Brokos who writes for the 2p2 magazine and also has a great podcast, but he also talks about the ABC game - though like everyone else not in hand analysis.
Hi Lektor:

I agree with you and when I first read the initial quote early in the book I was just going to ignore it because this is a book of poker knowledge and not poker psychology. But the second quote made me pause and wonder why the author would recommend the Tendler stuff in the first place.

For those wondering why the second quote is correct it basically says that when you can process information presented your tendency to tilt will be reduced, and I agree with this -- see my book Real Poker Psychology. But Tendler's advice mostly comes from the sports world where things like speed, timing, and coordination are important, and execution, which requires stuff like this and would include things like how you throw your chips in the pot, just can't be important in poker. (And as a sample Tendler recommends stuff like deep breaths and physical warm ups.)

Anyway, none of this takes away from the quality of the information in Carroters work. It's just something I found interesting.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 09:00 AM   #165
flawz01
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 350
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Hey carroters, been watching your vids for a while. Is there an alternative way to pay? The book's listed at £39.99 but having to pay in $'s through gumroad it comes out to £53. Apologies if this had been asked already, I did skim read through the thread but to no avail.
flawz01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2016, 01:01 PM   #166
mrno1324
old hand
 
mrno1324's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 1,825
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Mason how did you find the upswing party?
mrno1324 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2016, 06:17 AM   #167
Hothy
centurion
 
Hothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London
Posts: 110
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by flawz01 View Post
Hey carroters, been watching your vids for a while. Is there an alternative way to pay? The book's listed at £39.99 but having to pay in $'s through gumroad it comes out to £53. Apologies if this had been asked already, I did skim read through the thread but to no avail.
Also wondering about this.
Hothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 03:26 AM   #168
avatar77
adept
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,036
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hothy View Post
Also wondering about this.
Hothy,
You can purchase directly from Amazon on kindle as well.
avatar77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 05:53 AM   #169
4-Star General
adept
 
4-Star General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 981
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Hand 25

Since this player is fit-or-fold we should expect him to call most sizes of bet when he's connected and fold to most sizes when he hasn't

Given the assumption above and the hand we have, there aren't many ways which Villain can connect with that flop. So most of the times you bet, you get a fold.
I understand your reasons behind build up the pot, the problem here is, you won't get 3 streets of value even against a passive fish, unless he has something really good. Maybe 99,TT,JJ would call 3 streets if no over comes, but really, dunno, I think most fish could find a fold.

What about checking, and betting turn and river, def on the larger side?
4-Star General is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 02:38 PM   #170
Hothy
centurion
 
Hothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London
Posts: 110
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar77 View Post
Hothy,
You can purchase directly from Amazon on kindle as well.
Cool, thanks
Hothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2016, 06:59 PM   #171
+VLFBERH+T
grinder
 
+VLFBERH+T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: at the crossroads
Posts: 521
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Bought the book 2 or 3 days ago (updated version 2), I am now at about page 170. Really loving the style and clarity with which concepts are explained so far, as well as the layout.

The only one minor gripe for me thus far is that I am really not much of a fan of reading pdf's on my screen, would much rather have this as an actual book in my hands. I do believe that having this published and sold on Amazon might well increase sales for you - now, with some time after the initial release, are you considering this option still at all?
+VLFBERH+T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2016, 11:53 PM   #172
Hired Goons2
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 416
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by +VLFBERH+T View Post
Bought the book 2 or 3 days ago (updated version 2), I am now at about page 170. Really loving the style and clarity with which concepts are explained so far, as well as the layout.

The only one minor gripe for me thus far is that I am really not much of a fan of reading pdf's on my screen, would much rather have this as an actual book in my hands. I do believe that having this published and sold on Amazon might well increase sales for you - now, with some time after the initial release, are you considering this option still at all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KruellaDeville View Post
+2 for a paper edition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popetman View Post
I would be thinking of buying your book

But I don't think there is a book?

Is it just pdf/ebook [?]

I can't read them - means I can't go to sleep afterwards....

Are you likely to be bringing it out in old school paper book format?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hired Goons2 View Post
Curious about a physical book too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popetman View Post
As it was ignored [my 'real' book version question] - I guess there won't be one [?]
Just saying
Hired Goons2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 02:50 AM   #173
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,472
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hired Goons2 View Post
Just saying
i only buy paperbook
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2016, 06:38 AM   #174
Eu.Era
adept
 
Eu.Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 723
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by +VLFBERH+T View Post
Bought the book 2 or 3 days ago (updated version 2), I am now at about page 170. Really loving the style and clarity with which concepts are explained so far, as well as the layout.

The only one minor gripe for me thus far is that I am really not much of a fan of reading pdf's on my screen, would much rather have this as an actual book in my hands. I do believe that having this published and sold on Amazon might well increase sales for you - now, with some time after the initial release, are you considering this option still at all?
Could you send the pdf off to some company and get them to print it for you? Maybe it would be too expensive to do not in bulk.
Eu.Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2016, 03:54 PM   #175
+VLFBERH+T
grinder
 
+VLFBERH+T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: at the crossroads
Posts: 521
Re: Review: Peter 'Carroters' Clarke - The Grinder's Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eu.Era View Post
Could you send the pdf off to some company and get them to print it for you? Maybe it would be too expensive to do not in bulk.
Had checked that already before my post. It's more than €100 (for one copy), and it seems like I am not the only one who would buy a proper book, even though, if that ever happens, by then I will have worked through the material, and re-worked through it again ...
+VLFBERH+T is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online