Reviewers will say if it's just "a bit of maths", but I have read great testimonials about Tom's coaching, some from former CardRunners contributors whom I would trust. So I would rather expect the book to offer the author's great insight backed up with solid analytical work. And, in my opinion, that's where some popular PLO books are severely lacking.

You can get great insight from great players in all the vids.Looking at the table of contents books 1 and 2 look like mostly maths.Maybe PLO is very soft and this kind of material pays for itself but I still think the average player can do it themselves by using Omaha tracker,an Omaha calculator,watching vids and railing and studying the best players.

Sometimes when arguments like this appear they just need to be refuted. The reason certain consultants can charge this amount is because they are already making that amount. If for example you were right out of college and wanted to work as a consultant, even if you were quite smart, there is no way you can command a fee at these levels.

A couple of years back there was a poker author who had a somewhat flawed book who was posting on these forums. Somehow in my interaction with him I quoted him a very high price to review his book and give him comments, and as expected, he was insulted by my offer.

What he didn't understand was that the price I quoted him was consistent with my current income, (and as many of you know, Two Plus Two has been quite successful). However, this author could of had someone from these forums do the exact same work that I offered to do, gotten it done for perhaps one-tenth the price or even less, and gotten it done at least as well as I would have done it.

So while "a half decent business consultant" may start at $2,500 a day, I guarantee that when they started out, their initial income was no where close to that amount.

Changing the subject, it's my opinion that if these high priced ebooks (or books) were released at a more normal price, had good distribution, and really are terrific, the author(s) would make even more money because of the volume of sales. And to give you a specific example, our all-time best selling book is Harrington on Hold 'em: Volume I by Dan Harrington and Bill Robertie. It's sales in a little less than five years are 280,000 copies.

Mason

I'm a member of CR, DC, BFP and LP, so I won't disagree that there is a lot to learn on these sites, and I think Tom did say that they are better options for small stakes players (he also makes vids for Poker Savvy+ btw).
However, I do not think the average player can do the kind of study M.Chambers did in his book; I have been toying with some basic PLO combinatorics myself, and it is not that easy (otherwise we would already have it). Besides, you got to know what you are looking for, so to speak, and it calls for a good understanding of the game.

It is my opinion that HoH is a book suited for a large audience, beginners included, while Tom's book definitely targets mid & high stakes PLO players. I am glad that some of the latest books/ebooks provided more advanced material, and that there is something beyond HoH in the current literature (with all due respect, since I regularly recommend HoH/HoCG in this forum).

If Tom, CTS or whoever wanted to sell 280,000 copies, they would have to rewrite their book with that purpose in mind, since a book really suited for 2/4 and above would be way too specific for the average joe, in my opinion. Of course, as the customer base gets smaller, prices go up, naturally (and if you are a 2/4 player, $2,5k is six buy-ins).

As someone in this thread mentioned, the information is out there in training videos, however getting it all structured and served on a platter and not only bit here and there can be much more valuable to someone who wants to learn the game fast and wishes to skip watching half a million videos for one piece of information.

I don't know the author, nor I can judge how valid is are the promotional chapters he provided on his website, because I haven't played a single hand of PLO. However, I strongly consider investing in this ebook as I think the time I would have to spent learning it by conventional methods would cost me much more than this one time payment.

FWIW I did buy Slowhabit/CTS LTBR and Bobbo's bible and I don't think their prize was a scam at all.

I generally sympathize with Mason's point and I'm happy for Dan Harrington, but there is no way in hell this material sells 280,000 copies, or 28,000 copies. It doesn't belong in a bookstore. I could write a PLO book that belongs in a bookstore but I'd rather write this one.

This project grew out of the realization that much of the material I was using in my coaching program could be more efficiently transmitted to those students with a combination of a book and lessons.The price is consistent with my current income for access to the work I've done. In fact, $2500 worth of coaching without the book will get you significantly less information.

The same as true of coaching from others with similar rates. There is a market of people who want to spend a few thousand to become much better PLO players. It is perfectly understandable to be surprised that this market exists, but it does and is not interested in buying 100 copies of Harrington on Holdem, as good a book as it is.

The attention that comes with having written a book is an unpleasant side effect for me. I'm stuck with it anyway, and clearly I've invited it to some extent, but I never would have set out to write a book for a mass audience. I'd much rather make $2500 from each copy of a book I had complete creative control over than from my 20% or w/e of every 500 copies of a mass-promoted $25 book. That's just a personal preference.

If he sat beyond his computer to great this book then he truly is magical and his book is under priced.

Coaching is superior in that it will address the individual's game and weaknesses.Whatever the info in this book the real skill must inevitably be in knowing how and when to apply it in the games.

Can't argue with Mason when he says that people starting out in consultancy/expert advice can't command a high fee.

However, when they have a reputation and a track record then the sky's the limit. Think about Tom Peters or more to the point Michael Porter. Word is that Porter is earning in excess of $75k for a session...but then there aren't too many Michael Porter's to the pound and not too many people have his pedigree.

On the other hand Porter's books don't cost silly money and you can buy them on Amazon at a realistic price.

Back to our argument about value, I guess.

The thing is they may be starting out in advice giving, but they have the experience playing the game which is what counts. You can look Baluga, CTS, aejones and see they are really beating the game. I would be very reluctant to take advice from say, David Sklansky who I don't think has much (any) experience in NLHE 6max and HU.

The same obv applies for PLO and LearnedfromTV.

When HOH first came out much of the material was ground breaking and players rushed to buy it. Even though it was only five years ago, that's actually a fairly long time in the poker strategy book market.

With that being said, the market today has become much more fragmented and there are many more books available competing for the buyer's attention. So 280,000 will probably be a difficult number for a not yet published book to ever achieve. However, if players believe that a book has come out which will improve their win rates, a lot of copies can still be sold.

By the way, I have no objection to these high priced ebooks. From my point of view it is just a business model which is different from ours, and the ebook authors certainly have the right to go this route. It's just that, and again this is my opinion, if their material is as good as they claim, they would be much better off going with a more conventional pricing and sales approach.

Of course they would (in most cases) also discover that to go the route which I think is better is not as easy as it seems.

Best wishes,
mason

While I agree that 280,000 copies is out of reach, partly because PLO doesn't have the interest that let's say no-limit hold 'em tournaments had, if this book is as good as you claim, we would have no trouble selling 28,000 copies (though that won't happen overnight) provided the manuscript was of the appropriate length for one of our publications and also met our writing standards. (I have no idea if this is case since I have never seen the book.)

Also, lots of people have written books that belong in book stores and their sales are no where close to 28,000, and this includes many poker authors (and their publishers) who in many cases have not even been able to get their books on the bookstores shelves simply due to the fact that so many poker books have come out the last couple of years. (Fortunately we at Two Plus Two do not have this problem.)

Just to go a little farther on this, when you walk into a large book store such as a big Barnes & Noble, you can easily be looking at well over 100,000 different titles. What's interesting is that virtually all of these titles have close to zero sales and are known as "wallpaper" in the publishing business.

Best wishes,
mason

I don't play poker seriously anymore. The Two Plus Two experience now dominates my life. However, if it was say ten years ago and I was convinced that for a fee of $2,500 my win rate would go up by a statistically significant amount, that is a purchase I would make.

But that's not my argument here. I believe that if these extremely high priced books contain the quality of material that the authors claim for them, they would be much better off going a more conventional sales route. Also, when you are the author of a book that sells extremely well, many doors can open for you, and sometimes in very unexpected ways.

Best wishes,
mason

You took a little bit of a cheap shot here, but I suspect it was not intentional. David Sklansky is not offering any advice on NLHE 6 max and HU. However, based on his track record giving poker advice and his overall impact on the game, if he was to offer advice in these areas, I would bet it wouldn't be done unless it was top notch.

Mason

every one of these threads about high priced ebooks turns into a debate about
a) can a book be worth that much and
b) mason telling the author he would be better off mass-distributing over 2p2 (if his material is really that good) and a discussion about these two alternatives.

would it be possible to make two threads, so that people who are interested in the content and reviews of the book dont have to wade through the posts in the other category which make up 99%?

i guess it would be too much of a hassle for the mods.

are there any reviews yet?

what stakes, handle, and site does Tom Chambers play on so we can look up his stats?

Having read all the previews I agree with the view that this is certainly not a 28,000 copy selling book! I believe the adage goes that for every equation you put in a book you halve it's sales? Well if that's the case I pity the author, because there's an absolute ton of stats and combinatorics in the bits I've read. It's clearly a highly technical dissertation on the game that would only really appeal to a small percentage of math-literate, hardcore plo players who play against other decent, thinking players. I doubt it would sell mass market because frankly you don't need to know any of this stuff to beat say plo25.

Whether one distribution model or another is superior I don't know, but I think you have to choose the one which you feel is best suited to your product and it's intended (and likely) audience.

I just wish I had 2,5k going spare!

Those who dismiss the book outright due to its price(and I agree, it's kinda outrageously high) need to realize that if your roll is $500K then a $3K expense is nothing.

Let me put it another way: how many high stakes pros do you think would love to shell out $50,000 for a book titled Comprehensive Guide To Crushing No Limit Hold'em by Tom Dwan???

I'll bet you every single player that has ever sat at a $100/200+ table.

You should also take into consideration the fact that Toms book is teaching people who are probably gonna beat him out of pots in the future.

Kind of a moot point if he's making more money coaching/writing than he is at playing poker.

Mason ~ if someone sent you a demo copy of one of these 2500$ books would you take the effort to read it ?

I am a student of Tom Chambers and I did buy his book. It would have been nice if his book was more expensive so less players would buy it. And I wished it was only one guy who did buy his book and this guy was me.

I'm sure I would.

MM

I object to these kind of posts. I'm sure we could find lots of people to write the exact same thing, and mean it, about any number of our books.

All that this is saying is that you think the book had worthwhile information. I remember reading literally hundreds of posts similar to yours concerning a specific book designed for low limit hold 'em that many people swore buy. It was so discredited on these forums that the author had to completely rewrite it.

In addition, I have recently seen posts on here praising another book which is simply terrible. Here is my review of the book in question: http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...ook-Review.php

For a post like this to have any credibility, you need to tell us something specific about the book and explain exactly why it's terrific.

MM