Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Books and Publications Discussion and reviews of books, videos, and magazines. Sponsored by TwoPlusTwoStore.com.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Yesterday, 03:38 PM   #251
Ramblinman15
journeyman
 
Ramblinman15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Online
Posts: 335
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by winky51 View Post
...3b'ing polarized balanced premiums (TT+AQ) and trash ~9% (60/40 premi/trash) vs a mixed wider range of lets say 15%
Our opponent is forced to play predictable
Our opponent is dealing with an almost optimal 3b scenario forcing way less 4b bluffs
Even if we are bluffed when we hold 72o our equity is so bad vs the opponent's entire range it is less wrong to fold compared to when we hold 76s flop a draw and can't realize our equity or have to pay a price for our draw that might not get paid
If we hit our hand is disguised when we hold 72o
It is easy to play and easy to get away with
It is easy to get paid if we hit with trash and our opponent slowplayed a big hand
Our 3bs get through a lot.
What's your barrell strategy with your trash hands ? Seems to me that it's going to be one and done as you are unlikely to improve OTT. Doesn't that mean your turn and river bets are always for value, making your play predictable ?
Ramblinman15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 03:51 PM   #252
winky51
veteran
 
winky51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Las Vegas NV
Posts: 2,751
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Depends on the board. My hand is polarized which means I can bluff bet more effectively. I put a hard decision on the opponent if they call.

I want to understand why Janda's method works in live cash games. I am weighing in multiple factors in this situation because humans are flawed creatures. Correct me if I am wrong, even the best pros don't 3b as much as they "technically should" or defend their blinds as much as they "technically should". I remember reading something on that.

If they call my 3b they hand range narrows and it make it easier for me to read their hand. While if I 3b wide their ranges make it harder for me to read their hand. They can even 4b bluff with impunity. And if I 5b bluff.... well then this is just a pissing contest with high variance where probably over 1,000,000 hands the results are close to even.

I want to be wrong. The idea of poker is to make better decisions than your opponent. If I can facilitate that by playing in a why that accomplishes it then I think that's good. Keeping decisions simple and risking the least to gain the most.
winky51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:26 PM   #253
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 785
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by winky51 View Post
I have a question. The book confirmed a lot of what I already have known. But I have always had a problem with 3 betting strategies from professionals vs tough opponents. Mathematically many models put forth curved graphs for betting and folding, raising and folding, etc. But I think those graphs don't account for certain variables. We are human and don't make adjustments on a curve. For example. If I bet 1/3rd pot vs X opponent he might XR bluff me and barrel the turn. But if I bet 2/5th pot vs the same opponent he might get suspicious and just call. The difference in money made and won is a lot larger. This is presented in the book in the form of betting vs checking when the best play technically is exploitive vs a particular opponent. Even if an opponent is weak and betting is correct to make him fold our opponent isn't on a mathematical curve of betting. He is on an absolute mindset. He might 100% fold to one sized bet and 100% call vs another. The difference between the 2 is minimal. So with this in mind. If I am wrong about what I read in the book please correct me.

One note. Online I can make an argument that Janda's book is correct due to the size of data we have on our opponents and the available information. If a player is tough we can calculate fairly accurately our play vs them like a computer formulating ranges and plans if they are giving us trouble. The below applies to when we don't have such detailed data as in live games. I believe the software now even tells you how a player plays specifically vs you in which position vs which position.

We assume here 100+bb stacks.

So I wanted to address a couple 3b scenarios.
OOP = out of position
IP = in position

Tough Opponent is raising wide IP and you are in the blinds - resources advocate 3b'ing a mixed range vs tough opponents. Why? It still doesn't make sense to me over just calling with high equity hands and 3b'ing with a polarized range.

Calling over 3b'ing a mixed range
SPRs are higher with high equity hands
We can still bluff the same as if we 3b and CB
We get to hand the aggression to the opponent and get a read on his play
He can't trap us preflop in a bloated pot - Cold call with AA and let us value own ourselves
We can represent a huge amount of draws
We aren't opened up to 4b bluffs
We can realize our equity

3b'ing polarized balanced premiums (TT+AQ) and trash ~9% (60/40 premi/trash) vs a mixed wider range of lets say 15%
Our opponent is forced to play predictable
Our opponent is dealing with an almost optimal 3b scenario forcing way less 4b bluffs
Even if we are bluffed when we hold 72o our equity is so bad vs the opponent's entire range it is less wrong to fold compared to when we hold 76s flop a draw and can't realize our equity or have to pay a price for our draw that might not get paid
If we hit our hand is disguised when we hold 72o
It is easy to play and easy to get away with
It is easy to get paid if we hit with trash and our opponent slowplayed a big hand
Our 3bs get through a lot

There are many other variables to consider.

Tough Opponent raising wide and we are IP - Resources advocate raising a mixed range but calling with high equity hands isn't bad. I say you polarize your range again. But not with trash. With hands that have card removal and back door equity that rarely get you in trouble. Bluff 3b'ing hands are Axs, Kxs, Qxs.

The reasons why I like these hands should be clear from the readings. But what is not clear is their comparative flush situations. Something never discussed in books is that the 3rd nut flush is usually the 50% mark of flushes. This means that if you get raised or someone bets into you when the flush card comes holding the 3rd nut flush is ahead of 50% of all other flushes. A reason I don't 3 betting hands like 76s. I have been coolered way too many times. And while many might say "bah that rarely happens" you are right. But the cost of when it does impacts the profits of so many future hands in little pots.

One instance where I believe 3 betting is better is when you have another tough opponent behind who can squeeze if you limp. But my solution to that. Move tables, change seats. Why are you sitting squeezed between two tough aggressive opponents?!?! In an MTT you don't have a choice, but I am referring to specifically cash games. We take the most optimal situation and in my eyes it's finding the best game. And if the table you are at sucks and all the tables of that limit suck drop down a limit.

So why call with 76s instead of 3b it if it is safe behind us and we have the button?
The only issue that is not in our favor is that in general a big hand won't just call our 3b, they will 4b OOP.
But all the other factors still remain.
In addition because of our relatively equal skill our position gains us an even larger leverage to bluff.

If you hold a big pair what is more difficult to play? A tough player 3 betting you? Or that same tough player calling and raising the flop small leveraging the pot against you with position? Potentially forcing you to play for stacks when you have committed little to the pot? If a low SPR makes it easier for a bad player to play his hand than it does the same for a good player.

So I am having a hard time finding an argument for 3b'ing a mixed range vs a tough opponent as this book says and pros recommend.

This article does not include squeezing. All the obvious factors are why it's a good play.

From my experience..... I have had much more success calling with high equity hands and using dead money or scare cards successfully vs the tougher opponents than 3 betting them with hands like 76s which end up in disaster situations from time to time. I don't realize my equity, I get coolered, I get it in as a dog with a big draw vs a set, etc.

I have had a far better experience just calling with that mixed range and polarizing my 3bs forcing my opponents to play predictable.

I believe even in Ed Miller's book he explains he can call and play better with positon during a steal vs a mixed 3b player. Vs a polarized player he has to play predictable and usually folds.

For me flipping my opponent's hand face up is one of the most important factors in the game. My hand then doesn't matter, just what he has.
You're not alone in this, but I think a lot of people may have a different definition of a "good" or "tough" opponent than I do.

To me a good or a tough opponent isn't someone who is 3-betting AK on a KcQc7s board after continuation betting multiway on the flop after raising UTG. A good player there is checking at a high frequency and check-raising with both good hands (sets and such) and bluffs. He's not 3-betting with AA and AK against a polarized range when deep and OOP. Likewise, to me a "tough" opponent isn't in an "absolute mindset" where he'll fold like crazy to a 40% bet and call like crazy vs a 33% bet. That's what a weak opponent who we can easily exploit would do. The advice for how to beat such an opponent (bet nut-type hands 33%, bet all bluffs 40%+) is so easy to me that I don't think discussing such a situation is really useful or interesting.

I'm not trying to offend anyone or sound like a tool here, so please don't take this the wrong way. I just don't know how else to honestly answer the question. Yes many variables matter when making decisions, but some of the variables you're assuming you know make the decision (to advanced or professional players) trivially easy.

It's extremely unlikely that 3-betting a very polarized range will work better against strong opponent's than the ranges recommended by PokerSnowie or in the book. That's because against a good player

Quote:
Originally Posted by winky51 View Post
For me flipping my opponent's hand face up is one of the most important factors in the game. My hand then doesn't matter, just what he has.
Won't happen. Or if it does happen, it happens when you get amazing turns or rivers (blank turns or rivers on wet boards) as described in the book, and even THEN he still may decide not to fold and call you with TPWK when that's the best hand in his range.

Hopefully that helps, and if you do have a more specific question I'll be glad to answer.
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 07:39 AM   #254
Ihooper88
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 80
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

After reading your book I think I mostly understand the reason that Pio has a all these top pair flop raises. One thing that I cant figure out is, why does pio raise a lot of ax on dry ace high boards?

https://gyazo.com/a9920d8c8ceb1792ef763774823313cb

This is a 3 bet pot BB v UTG, why is PIO raising AQ, AJ, and some AT here? It seems we don't really need to protect our hand on this board and AT seems very thin in a BB v UTG 3bp.

One other question I have, after we raise the flop BB shoves AK and 54s, If the player pool shoves the AK but doesnt shove the 54s very often, should we raise aq/aj and bluffs and fold to the shove or should we just call?

Thanks
Ihooper88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 09:49 AM   #255
winky51
veteran
 
winky51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Las Vegas NV
Posts: 2,751
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Janda View Post
Hopefully that helps, and if you do have a more specific question I'll be glad to answer.
What I am gathering then is that you mean me as an opponent. Because I do those things. So basically if I am playing someone as good as I am. At the local casinos I visit I rarely find an equal player. At my place there are about 5 that play 2/5 or 5/10 who think I do and at least 2 of them admit they don't know how to play vs a tough opponent who plays closer to GTO. They are feel players who play exploitive.

Recently one of my poker friends, who is better than me at poker, went to the WSOP and cashed. Even he admitted his late table was better than him with a lot of 3 betting. Basically saying what you are saying.

So my conclusion is that these 3b strategies do not apply 98% of the time at 2/5 and 5/10 at my casino. Thus what I thought you meant by a tough opponent just meaning deep thinker or better. When in reality these guys are well beyond that.

Now here is the follow up. Which is the best resource to understand how to combat tough opponents by 3 betting? My future plans when my son is out of school and I have more free time is to enter into larger MTTs to play for educational charities. Give a portion of my winnings to help children. I will need to know how to play these players. Also if online ever gets to the point where I am forced to play on a HUD site. I'll reread that 3b section again.

And no offense taken. Learning from mistakes is never offending. I often overthink my opponent's capabilities. They simply are not at my level. I do a lot of combo work, understand how often people flop, what combos they have, what percentages of combos they have, etc. Some of my poker friends call me the math player but I am not. Mathematics of Poker gave me headaches.
winky51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 10:47 AM   #256
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 785
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihooper88 View Post
After reading your book I think I mostly understand the reason that Pio has a all these top pair flop raises. One thing that I cant figure out is, why does pio raise a lot of ax on dry ace high boards?

https://gyazo.com/a9920d8c8ceb1792ef763774823313cb

This is a 3 bet pot BB v UTG, why is PIO raising AQ, AJ, and some AT here? It seems we don't really need to protect our hand on this board and AT seems very thin in a BB v UTG 3bp.

One other question I have, after we raise the flop BB shoves AK and 54s, If the player pool shoves the AK but doesnt shove the 54s very often, should we raise aq/aj and bluffs and fold to the shove or should we just call?

Thanks
You'd have to post a lot more information (turn and river strategies) to really start trying to figure it out, but I agree it's surprising. Especially that AJs seem to be raised as a pure strategy.

Is it check-raising them then check-calling them later? Maybe it's worried that if it check-raises too polarized of a range (pure nuts/pure air) then villain will never have an incentive to bet, so it mixes in some TPGK type hands to check-raise now but potentially check-call later. But I'm really not sure and software does weird stuff all the time that's often hard to figure out why, so you'd have to explore deeper.
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 10:57 AM   #257
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 785
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by winky51 View Post
What I am gathering then is that you mean me as an opponent. Because I do those things. So basically if I am playing someone as good as I am. At the local casinos I visit I rarely find an equal player. At my place there are about 5 that play 2/5 or 5/10 who think I do and at least 2 of them admit they don't know how to play vs a tough opponent who plays closer to GTO. They are feel players who play exploitive.

Recently one of my poker friends, who is better than me at poker, went to the WSOP and cashed. Even he admitted his late table was better than him with a lot of 3 betting. Basically saying what you are saying.

So my conclusion is that these 3b strategies do not apply 98% of the time at 2/5 and 5/10 at my casino. Thus what I thought you meant by a tough opponent just meaning deep thinker or better. When in reality these guys are well beyond that.

.........

And no offense taken. Learning from mistakes is never offending. I often overthink my opponent's capabilities. They simply are not at my level. I do a lot of combo work, understand how often people flop, what combos they have, what percentages of combos they have, etc. Some of my poker friends call me the math player but I am not. Mathematics of Poker gave me headaches.
Ok great, I think we're on the same page now. So when you say a good/tough opponent you mean basically a top player at a NL$500 or NL$1000 live cash game. Got it.

Against this player pool the best strategies are going to be highly exploiative, and both a good exploitative strategy and good GTO strategy are both going to be highly profitable (in terms of BB/100) due to the relative softness of the games. So you can take either approach, but a good exploitative strategy is probably easier to learn and can ultimately be more profitable (likely by a wide margin) too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winky51 View Post
Now here is the follow up. Which is the best resource to understand how to combat tough opponents by 3 betting? My future plans when my son is out of school and I have more free time is to enter into larger MTTs to play for educational charities. Give a portion of my winnings to help children. I will need to know how to play these players. Also if online ever gets to the point where I am forced to play on a HUD site. I'll reread that 3b section again.

OH SNAP oddly enough I JUST NOW got your email from CardRunners. Good to have you here too as I'm going to miss discussions there.

Ok, so I assume you've seen my videos at Cardrunners regarding pre-flop play and 3-bet pots. Did you find watching videos useful? If you did, I'd probably look into one of the following but you'll have to fact check what I'm saying is true:

1. RunItOnce, advantage here is most content and very good players.
2. Deuces Cracked, advantage is still lots of content and cheapest option
3. Upswing Poker, advantage here is top notch players and most organized content.

I would then try to supplement this material with either PokerSnowie (probably this one) or PioSOLVER (a bit more advanced but it might float your boat) then find other players to talk to who are working on concepts similar to yours. Playing in 3-bet pots well is high variance and difficult so this is stuff that's going to take time, so make sure you're enjoying it too as if you have a family and full time job I would not do anything that makes a game you currently love feel like "work."
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 11:06 AM   #258
winky51
veteran
 
winky51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Las Vegas NV
Posts: 2,751
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Pricing doesn't matter for the subscription. Frankly I don't subscribe to any site currently. A lot of the advancements I make are books or my own work of discovery. Come to think of it I think I get free card runners because I play enough hands online every month.

But seems like a good idea to understand to at least invest a month, watch lots of videos, and take good notes.
winky51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:51 PM   #259
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 785
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by winky51 View Post
Pricing doesn't matter for the subscription. Frankly I don't subscribe to any site currently. A lot of the advancements I make are books or my own work of discovery. Come to think of it I think I get free card runners because I play enough hands online every month.

But seems like a good idea to understand to at least invest a month, watch lots of videos, and take good notes.
I've got some bad news for you....
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 01:24 PM   #260
winky51
veteran
 
winky51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Las Vegas NV
Posts: 2,751
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Janda View Post
I've got some bad news for you....
Rhu-Rho Raggy!
winky51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 02:27 PM   #261
mrfunnywobbl
journeyman
 
mrfunnywobbl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Sentient Ant Colony
Posts: 301
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Janda View Post
I've got some bad news for you....
Is there a little button on the side of this thread you need me to press?
mrfunnywobbl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 05:10 PM   #262
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 7,261
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihooper88 View Post
After reading your book I think I mostly understand the reason that Pio has a all these top pair flop raises. One thing that I cant figure out is, why does pio raise a lot of ax on dry ace high boards?

This is a 3 bet pot BB v UTG, why is PIO raising AQ, AJ, and some AT here? It seems we don't really need to protect our hand on this board and AT seems very thin in a BB v UTG 3bp.
Is the screengrab showing UTG's strategy when facing a c-bet by BB? I'd like to know what the BB's c-betting range looks like.
In an analogous spot (but with different/tighter ranges for seeing the flop), Snowie suggests the BB doesn't c-bet AK/AQ/AJ, and is more weighted towards underpairs and air when it c-bets. In that case, UTG would effectively be raising AT+ for value/protection. (Apart from 99/44/A9s, those aces are the top of UTG's range). If Pio is saying that AK is a c-bet (and indeed a flop 3-bet) for the BB, then it's really hard to work out why UTG should raise AJ/AT, since it would just be valueowning itself against a strong c-betting range.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 05:55 PM   #263
Ramblinman15
journeyman
 
Ramblinman15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Online
Posts: 335
Re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Reviews and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Is the screengrab showing UTG's strategy when facing a c-bet by BB? I'd like to know what the BB's c-betting range looks like.
In an analogous spot (but with different/tighter ranges for seeing the flop), Snowie suggests the BB doesn't c-bet AK/AQ/AJ, and is more weighted towards underpairs and air when it c-bets. In that case, UTG would effectively be raising AT+ for value/protection. (Apart from 99/44/A9s, those aces are the top of UTG's range). If Pio is saying that AK is a c-bet (and indeed a flop 3-bet) for the BB, then it's really hard to work out why UTG should raise AJ/AT, since it would just be valueowning itself against a strong c-betting range.


BBs has huge range advantage on this flop. The flop is bone dry so c-betting Ax hands does little to deny UTGs equity. And why build the pot when BB can be behind 2 pairs and sets. QQ-TT are in UTGs range but they are unlikely to improve so BB can bet for value on later streets. Having said this I agree it would be good to see the Pio flop strategy for BB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ramblinman15 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online