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Old 04-30-2017, 03:00 PM   #26
getmeoffcompletely
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Solvers solutions are only as good as the inputs you start with.

If you give a solver a range of 100% and say that postflop it can only use an allin or fold bet size it will give you a GTO solution for that specific game you created, obviously it will be nowhere near a solution to real poker.

Libratus came up with it's strategy by trial and error playing countless hands without any predefined ranges or assumptions. The problem with any solver solution is that it has to start from human assumptions, which may or may not be right.
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Old 04-30-2017, 03:09 PM   #27
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Doug's point was about cbet%. My understanding is that solvers like to cbet a lot (about 70% HU). Heads up if you open, your opponent calls and checks flop to you it's not that hard to get assumptions right. You can just look at what percentage he's calling pre and approximate that range with decent accuracy.
Libratus on the other hand cbet 50%ish.
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Old 04-30-2017, 03:35 PM   #28
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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Originally Posted by Nit Bag View Post
Mathew,

Doug Polk says the solvers are recommending strategies that the worlds best poker playing computer Libratus was not using. Since the solvers were highly likely to not be as rigorous as Libratus how can we trust the output?

Applications let the reader intuitively solve situations and bet sizes based on theory, will this new book be similar in that regard or are we left to only to trust the solver output?
Good question.

I'm not sure if you've seen any of my videos on CardRunners but I pretty much like PokerSnowie and PIOsolver to help illustrate concepts. But if you just want to know exactly what a solver or PokerSnowie thinks for any given spot then I think you should just buy the program.

I think understanding concepts is a lot more important than getting the correct line for any given hand and I think even if you somehow knew the correct answer to a given spot (say "Libratus" has it solved) it's not all that useful unless you understand why. I strongly believe you could actually have some software that plays perfect poker, give it to the average player, and it wouldn't benefit them all that much if even at all. It honestly might even make them play worse if they're a weak player. Sure, the best of the best could probably gain a lot from it, but I don't think it'd benefit much players all that much. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but those are my thoughts.

The comparison I'd make is I think if I wanted to learn chess, I think I'd gain much more from books/videos/etc written by players who know the game well and explain concepts and basic strategy fantastically well. I don't think giving me an optimal playing chess bot to play against and saying "Alright Janda, have at it" would end up teaching me all that much, because I currently suck too much at chess to really benefit from it.

So, the goal of this book is really just to explain concepts really clearly and illustrate them well with hand examples. I think software is useful for helping me do that and that's its main purpose in the book.
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Old 04-30-2017, 03:43 PM   #29
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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Good question.

I'm not sure if you've seen any of my videos on CardRunners but I pretty much like PokerSnowie and PIOsolver to help illustrate concepts. But if you just want to know exactly what a solver or PokerSnowie thinks for any given spot then I think you should just buy the program.

I think understanding concepts is a lot more important than getting the correct line for any given hand and I think even if you somehow knew the correct answer to a given spot (say "Libratus" has it solved) it's not all that useful unless you understand why. I strongly believe you could actually have some software that plays perfect poker, give it to the average player, and it wouldn't benefit them all that much if even at all. It honestly might even make them play worse if they're a weak player. Sure, the best of the best could probably gain a lot from it, but I don't think it'd benefit much players all that much. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but those are my thoughts.

The comparison I'd make is I think if I wanted to learn chess, I think I'd gain much more from books/videos/etc written by players who know the game well and explain concepts and basic strategy fantastically well. I don't think giving me an optimal playing chess bot to play against and saying "Alright Janda, have at it" would end up teaching me all that much, because I currently suck too much at chess to really benefit from it.

So, the goal of this book is really just to explain concepts really clearly and illustrate them well with hand examples. I think software is useful for helping me do that and that's its main purpose in the book.
Exactly what I am looking for! Cant wait for the release! The graphics for Applications of NL in iBooks & Kindle shows the 2013 printing, has the book been updated at Kindle & iBooks?
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Old 04-30-2017, 04:01 PM   #30
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Matthew, in order to grasp your second book, reading the first one is needed? Or this new book will be a standalone volume?
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Old 04-30-2017, 04:05 PM   #31
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

I really like the contrast between the 80s cover and it being probably the most theoretically advanced poker book yet (other than MoP I guess).
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Old 04-30-2017, 05:43 PM   #32
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
Matthew, in order to grasp your second book, reading the first one is needed? Or this new book will be a standalone volume?
It's standalone, but in my mind it's somewhat of an update to Applications.

Also I just started watching Rick and Morty. Great show.

Last edited by Matthew Janda; 04-30-2017 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Just noticed Rick
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Old 04-30-2017, 05:56 PM   #33
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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I really like the contrast between the 80s cover and it being probably the most theoretically advanced poker book yet (other than MoP I guess).
I don't think this book is super theoretically advanced or anything. It's going to be a lot easier to read than Applications. I actually think once you get a good grip on a lot of the concepts discussed in Applications you can step back and concepts and spots that once seemed complicated begin to make a lot more sense. If you've seen any of my recent stuff (last few years, doesn't have to be super recent) on CardRunners you'll know what I'm talking about.

For example, I don't even like the terms "value" and "bluff" anymore unless we're on the river, but it's still pretty easy to explain to even a new player why a polarized flop raising range makes sense even if the terms "value" and "bluff" aren't particularly useful once you're thinking at a higher level. And once you understand what properties a hand needs to have to make a good flop raise, you'll be able to see why it's possible to raise hands on the flop that aren't particularly weak or particularly strong provided your sizing is on point and you don't let your range consists of too many of these types of hands. So that's the kind of stuff this book is about.

I don't even know if it's possible for a book to ever come out that's more advanced and ahead of it's time than MoP arguably was.
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Old 04-30-2017, 06:04 PM   #34
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

That sounds awesome. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
Also I just started watching Rick and Morty. Great show.
QFT
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Old 04-30-2017, 06:06 PM   #35
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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Originally Posted by mrno1324 View Post
I really like the contrast between the 80s cover and it being probably the most theoretically advanced poker book yet (other than MoP I guess).
Hi mrno1324:

A quick note on the cover. In the past, 2+2 put out four different books under the For Advanced Players series. Each one of these books had a major impact on how many players thought about the particular form of poker that the book featured and how they approached the game. We felt that this new text by Matt Janda would have the same effect. So even though it's been awhile since we released a For Advanced Players book, we felt that this one needed to be part of that family. Thus we're using a cover that matches the other books in the series.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 04-30-2017, 07:01 PM   #36
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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It's standalone, but in my mind it's somewhat of an update to Applications.

Also I just started watching Rick and Morty. Great show.
Ty for the clarification, I have one more question, if you don't mind.
Last time I checked Snowie hasn't show any proof that is strong and on 2p2 some user said that could be a scam. So since you are using a lot, did you verify its reliability?
I also know a HS HU reg is using it in game, but people don't care and play him without any fear...

Last edited by 4-Star General; 04-30-2017 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 04-30-2017, 08:36 PM   #37
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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Ty for the clarification, I have one more question, if you don't mind.
Last time I checked Snowie hasn't show any proof that is strong and on 2p2 some user said that could be a scam. So since you are using a lot, did you verify its reliability?
I also know a HS HU reg is using it in game, but people don't care and play him without any fear...
Full disclosure: I got paid a small amount of money to make those Snowie videos on their site as well as give them and another company feedback on their software. It was I believe the same amount I get paid for normal CardRunners videos, so it wasn't like extra money to advertise the product (which I wouldn't do anyways and if I did I'd disclose it the same way I'm doing now). But either way, I've gotten to talk to the guys at PokerSnowie a bit (this was several years ago).

My thoughts on Snowie are this (more thoughts in the book):

1. The guys who made it are really, really smart. If I had to make a list of the 5 smartest people I think I've ever gotten to talk to for at least a couple hours, at least one of the guys on their team would make that short list. I just think he was super, super intelligent based on my few conversations with him.

So, when many moons ago PokerSnowie used to advertise itself as "learn to play poker perfectly" or "play perfect GTO poker," (or however it did, please don't take these as exact quotes for what it said) it's hard for me to believe they didn't realize these claims were at least somewhat exaggerated. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt in general, so my guess is they likely got overly excited with their (IMO) very good software and made some exaggerated claims. I think this may have actually ended up hurting them in the long run, because PokerSnowie faced more backlash than it should of when it was first released for this reason and it even makes a guy like me (who really likes Snowie) now feel the need to go "Guys, this isn't playing GTO and some of the claims its made in the past aren't true" even though that really shouldn't be an issue.

2. I've had at least a few MSNL and HSNL/nosebleed players talk to me about PokerSnowie and how much they like it. If they can benefit from it, then I think most players can.

3. Over the past few years, I've said many times in many videos you can actually find river spots where PokerSnowie has to be playing poorly from a GTO perspective. Spots where it bets/folds 95%+ of its range. I don't know how many of these "leaks" are still there, nor do I really care because I don't think that's the point of the program. But it does stress that this isn't some perfect GTO software, if there were ever any doubts (and there really shouldn't be).

4. Poker is a super part time thing for me right now and likely always will be. That said, I still pay about $200/year to use that software and have never asked them (other than when I was initially working with them) to get to use it for free since I think it's worth the money to me. Most of the people I talk poker with prefer PioSOLVER to PokerSnowie, but it's still pretty common for them to ask me if I can check out how PokerSnowie would play a given situation if they don't already have the software themselves.

There's an entire section of the book that talks about PokerSnowie and PioSOLVER and what I think the advantages/disadvantages of each program are. I think both pieces of software are very impressive.

Hopefully that helps. At the end of the day I really think watching videos/advanced software/books/discussing hands in person or online/coaching etc etc are all useful and you should just use whatever combination of them you think is best. I really don't think there's any super simple and straight forward way to get good at poker and if there was then poker wouldn't exist for very long anyways.

Last edited by Matthew Janda; 04-30-2017 at 08:40 PM. Reason: BECAUSE I EDIT EVERYTHING AFTER I POST
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Old 04-30-2017, 08:40 PM   #38
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Ty a lot, you were more than clear
Lokking forward to your book obv
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:28 PM   #39
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Janda View Post

I think understanding concepts is a lot more important than getting the correct line for any given hand and I think even if you somehow knew the correct answer to a given spot (say "Libratus" has it solved) it's not all that useful unless you understand why. I strongly believe you could actually have some software that plays perfect poker, give it to the average player, and it wouldn't benefit them all that much if even at all. It honestly might even make them play worse if they're a weak player. Sure, the best of the best could probably gain a lot from it, but I don't think it'd benefit much players all that much. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but those are my thoughts.

The comparison I'd make is I think if I wanted to learn chess, I think I'd gain much more from books/videos/etc written by players who know the game well and explain concepts and basic strategy fantastically well. I don't think giving me an optimal playing chess bot to play against and saying "Alright Janda, have at it" would end up teaching me all that much, because I currently suck too much at chess to really benefit from it.

So, the goal of this book is really just to explain concepts really clearly and illustrate them well with hand examples. I think software is useful for helping me do that and that's its main purpose in the book.
Being primarily a chess player, I find your analogy interesting (and mostly correct). I do think currently that chess players understand how to improve at chess better than poker players understand how to improve at poker, in general. This is partially due to mistakes being more obvious in chess (because they cause you to lose more consistently, since you can't get lucky). However, this makes software more important in poker improvement, not less. Essentially every chess teacher recommends the following to a student with access to a chess engine:

1. Play a game.
2. Analyze your game, looking for mistakes, without using the engine.
3. Finally, analyze mistakes with the use of the engine.

I suspect very few poker players commit to this process (possibly because solvers are very expensive, but I don't think many poker players analyze their sessions without solvers either).

So I would say using an engine for improvement at chess and poker is definitely beneficial if done correctly.

With that said, I respect that you're writing a book where you check your own (human) ideas with software. Every good chess book does this. There's no excuse for poker to not do the same thing.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:18 PM   #40
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

We expect to ship the book within 2-3 week so it is up for presale:
http://www.professionalpoker.com/Cat...vanced-Players

20% Forum members discount. Apply code NLHAP-T right after adding it to the cart.

Shipping costs are based on service selected and location. Enter you address on the 2nd cart screen for the rates and options.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:58 PM   #41
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Hi Everyone:

Our printer just told us that we'll have proofs to look at on Monday. So, assuming that the proofs are in good shape, this means we're about two weeks away from having books.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:24 AM   #42
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Purchased with high expectations.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:04 AM   #43
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Got my order in and looking forward to this.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:59 AM   #44
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
We expect to ship the book within 2-3 week so it is up for presale:
http://www.professionalpoker.com/Cat...vanced-Players

20% Forum members discount. Apply code NLHAP-T right after adding it to the cart.

Shipping costs are based on service selected and location. Enter you address on the 2nd cart screen for the rates and options.
That link takes me to a page that has the header "E-Books" but the only option to purchase is New Paperback.

I'd like to purchase the E-book only. And I'd like to get it ASAP !!!

Looking forward to the book

Thanks
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:52 AM   #45
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

I'll put a post up as soon as the eBook is available.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:32 PM   #46
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

If you purchase the paperback do you get the e-book as well, similar to Amazon allowing you to rip tracks to your computer when you buy a cd?
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:33 PM   #47
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Everyone:

Our printer just told us that we'll have proofs to look at on Monday. So, assuming that the proofs are in good shape, this means we're about two weeks away from having books.

Best wishes,
Mason
How soon can we expect the Kindle version to be available?
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:13 PM   #48
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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If you purchase the paperback do you get the e-book as well, similar to Amazon allowing you to rip tracks to your computer when you buy a cd?
Sorry but we are not set up to do that. I am not aware of Amazon offering e-Books for free to folks that buy paperbacks.
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:02 PM   #49
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

up for the kindle version, any ETA?
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:08 PM   #50
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re: No-Limit Hold ’em For Advanced Players by Matthew Janda Pre-sale thread.

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Originally Posted by Nit Bag View Post
Doug Polk says the solvers are recommending strategies that the worlds best poker playing computer Libratus was not using. Since the solvers were highly likely to not be as rigorous as Libratus how can we trust the output?
Don't forget that part of the Liberatus modus operandi was a meta algorithm that altered its strategy after playing a human for awhile. That's part of the reason it was able to beat the humans. So it's really not comparable to the standard solvers.

Presumably, this task would be up to you in the real world, i.e. PIO + you ~= Liberatus.
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