Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Books and Publications Discussion and reviews of books, videos, and magazines. Sponsored by TwoPlusTwoStore.com.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-21-2017, 01:31 AM   #26
AxeJack08
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 328
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

Not collusion if it is unsaid. Does it really need to be said in late game of a tournament that you should let the low-stack players take each other out rather than risk losing your well-off stack against other large-stack player in an all-in situation?

Or that strong players seek fish and weaker players, rather than saying, "oh, he looks like a solid, tough player, I should focus on risking my money trying to prove I'm better than him?"

These are more of de facto cooperation, rather than collusion.
AxeJack08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 10:23 AM   #27
Alternate Identity
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: it is all about location
Posts: 385
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AxeJack08 View Post
Something, which deserves an overlook, if not a detailed read, is Evolution of Cooperation by Robert Axelrod. By no means a poker book, but covers that if you're in competition long enough, you are likely to adopt a cooperation rather than defection.

In the example of trench warfare, eventually, those shelling would get to know each other and simply shell at certain times and certain places. This became so routine, officers would impress their visiting superiors by walking within range of the enemy shelling (knowing full well they only fired at certain times and never deviated from this strategy, for fear their opponents would do the same). Essentially, since they spent so much time in the same trenches staring at the same enemy, they decided on a mutual "live and let live" policy without ever saying a word to each other. Reasons for how this came to be, here or elsewhere, is up for debate.

Applied to poker, this would be comparable to two regulars who do not try to bluff and steal with large bets against each other. They play straightforward poker to go against each other without large variance so they can focus on easier fish.

I wanted to point this out. As anything along the lines of cooperation theory came out in the essays or elsewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxeJack08 View Post
Not collusion if it is unsaid. Does it really need to be said in late game of a tournament that you should let the low-stack players take each other out rather than risk losing your well-off stack against other large-stack player in an all-in situation?

Or that strong players seek fish and weaker players, rather than saying, "oh, he looks like a solid, tough player, I should focus on risking my money trying to prove I'm better than him?"

These are more of de facto cooperation, rather than collusion.
Even unsaid, behavior in your first scenario is borderline collusion at best. Your second scenario is thought of as smart tournament poker. And people do it because they think it is to their advantage.
Alternate Identity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 10:51 AM   #28
LektorAJ
Pooh-Bah
 
LektorAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: none
Posts: 5,358
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

I think the difference in the two scenarios, and why one passes the smell test and one doesn't, is that the the regulars systematically behave that way because of their status as frequent visitors to the venue, whereas at the start of the tournament everyone has an equal opportunity to get into the position of one of the big stacks avoiding each other.

Does it actually help the regulars though? It seems to me that it would mess up their ranges - against each other it would increase the value of "marginal" hands by making it easier to take them to showdown but reduce the value of the implied odds hands by making it impossible to win big pots with them. The ranges they play would need to be a compromise between that set of factors and the normal factors in play against the general opposition.
LektorAJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 11:43 AM   #29
Alternate Identity
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: it is all about location
Posts: 385
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

If you are in a tournament and your primary motivation in not playing a hand is that you might get knocked out or crippled, you are not playing to win. You are playing not to lose.

Wrong thinking.
Alternate Identity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 12:51 PM   #30
LektorAJ
Pooh-Bah
 
LektorAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: none
Posts: 5,358
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

If it's a winner takes all tournament then I agree, it's wrong thinking.
LektorAJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 01:28 PM   #31
Alternate Identity
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: it is all about location
Posts: 385
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
If it's a winner takes all tournament then I agree, it's wrong thinking.
Even in the current, common type of tournament, I think playing not to lose as primary motivation is wrong.
Alternate Identity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 03:37 PM   #32
LektorAJ
Pooh-Bah
 
LektorAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: none
Posts: 5,358
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alternate Identity View Post
Even in the current, common type of tournament, I think playing not to lose as primary motivation is wrong.
Print money in SNGs then, because lots of people there believe in ICM (coincidentally brought into poker by MM) and stuff like that.

They'll do stuff like jam SB into BB 60% expecting you to call only 15% from the BB but if you are just playing for 1st then you can maximise your chipEV by calling more like 40%.

When the situation is reversed and you know they're only calling 15% on the bubble you can jam any two cards for chipEV.

You will get more 1sts than most people and fewer 2nds and 3rds. Good luck - and don't forget to let us know how you get on.

Last edited by LektorAJ; 02-21-2017 at 03:43 PM.
LektorAJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2017, 03:06 PM   #33
Jimulacrum
Pooh-Bah
 
Jimulacrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: On His Leather Ass
Posts: 3,588
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

I have read each volume of Poker Essays at least twice. A lot of the information is quite relevant.

I especially enjoyed the "In the Cardrooms" sections about game management and issues that come up there (which is also important to know from the perspective of a home game host, as well as a profitable player who wants good, consistent games).

Also, as mentioned above, the information about which skills are most important in which games is really helpful, especially when approaching new variants. That may be the most valuable material in the entire series. It has helped me a lot for sure, particularly in dealer's choice and rotation-based private games.
Jimulacrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2017, 07:23 PM   #34
George Rice
old hand
 
George Rice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Satan Island, NY
Posts: 1,291
Re: Mason, are your poker essays still relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AxeJack08 View Post
Not collusion if it is unsaid. Does it really need to be said in late game of a tournament that you should let the low-stack players take each other out rather than risk losing your well-off stack against other large-stack player in an all-in situation?

Or that strong players seek fish and weaker players, rather than saying, "oh, he looks like a solid, tough player, I should focus on risking my money trying to prove I'm better than him?"

These are more of de facto cooperation, rather than collusion.
There are other situations that come up in a poker room that might fit the cooperation instead of competition idea. Things such as seat changes and table changes come to mind. Also lists for open seats could apply. The card rooms have different motives (such as avoiding arguments, etc.), but the players (especially regulars) have an interest in cooperating with a fair system so as not to have to waste energy and their attention keeping an eye open for an advantageous seat or table before another player grabs it.
George Rice is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online