An incorrect comment. I like many books besides Harrinton's books, and have posted many positive comments about books by other authors. If you want to criticize me instead of contributing productive content on my posts please be accurate.

In the section on 3 and 4 betting, there is an example with the heading "A Sample Situation" starting on page 392. We are on the button, a player open-raises from middle position and his stats are 30/26 with a fold to 3bet of 60%. Page 395 indicates that we would call with AJo and ATo, and page 396 indicates that if we were out of position we would still call with both of those hands. I thought these were supposed to be folds because of domination. Please give opinions on this. (His stats are quite high, but I am just not familiar with how to make preflop calls like this. Do I risk reverse implied odds here simply because his range is wide?)

Lol really? wtf...

That's an awful plan indeed, how to totally butcher a hand.

That is an uncommun line but here is my 2c:
- villain 3-bet and we call: we get in a pot with a medium SPR holding a hand, JJ, that is notoriosly difficult to play in big pots. Are we ahead or behind? Unless we flop a third J, we will have a tough decision postflop. After 3 streets of betting, we may end up all-in with the worst of it.

- we call the 5-bet/shove. Assuming villain bets the top of his range (AA, KK, QQ) we are a big underdog to win the pot and we end up hoping it is a bluff.

- We 4-bet/fold. We may have lost 20-30 bb but at least we have 80-90bb left unlike the 2 previous options where we are risking 110bb.

- We 4-bet/villain calls: if he doesn't 5-bet, he may be playing the top of his range as well as some hands against which we are favourite. It becomes a coin flip in a pot with a low SPR. Not great but better than the first 2 options.

Note: I haven't read the book.

I can help but to reply with a haha .. not in any game, that I've ever played


If we play 100NL with 110bb and the common rake structure. I don't have the book, so I'll just assume that hero opens for 3$ and SB 3bets to 10$ followed by a 4bet to 22$, which is fairly common.

Now a calling an SB shove becomes profitable for around 6$ at the following range: TT+, AK.


So with an aggressive dynamic, Harrington/Robertie is claiming that SB is shoving tighter than that ... I am a bit puzzled as to what their assumptions are in this hand. Maybe we are talking 25NL or below?

I don't think Harrington is able to write a XYZ book. It's much better to write a decent ABC book than a bad XYZ book.

You will see that Analytical NLH will be different. I'm sure it will be the most advanced 2+2 book and a lot better than Harrington on Online.

I don't disagree with that statement

yeah.... problem 5-1 (the JJ 4bet hand) is messed up
last night, I went through the sample problems. While I agreed with nearly all of the written theory, some of the hand examples did not seem to match what was written
I was very disappointed in the lack of use in WTSD and W$SD stats among a few other postflop ones after a good discussion of these stats within the book.

I think the very best part of this book is the few pages (p226-227) on how different preflop ranges hit different flops. I've known this (ty to pokerrazor back in the day as software to play with). Most of the big winning grinders at low stakes know this stuff. It's been mentioned in a few of the training videos. However, I haven't really seen it written out before in a book. I think it's the best pieces of info for the breakeven low stakes or micro stakes player looking to move up in the book.

These two pages and the general summary of how to beat micro and contrasted with how to beat low are quality.

My reservation, which came up in the 3betting topic as well, is how to use this information to play postflop. I know it's a long complex answer that involves lots of balancing, but I can see this information leading to big trouble to those that misapply it. This also applies to the calling aspect of blind defense. From what I saw, HOOCG recommended calling in blind defense with some big aces, suited connectors, suited aces, med pairs, etc, but there is very little about how to go after that. The book clearly shows you cannot play fit or fold, but there is little else given to what is an extremely complex topic that many players get wrong. The book should discuss things like bluff c/r against some one broadway rainbow flops against a wide button raising range with a high c-bet, high W$SF, and low WTSD. But, not every time. Work out some ranges to do it with and in what proportions. It's that kind of discussion I was hoping to see as the next level in no limit that didn't make it into the book.

^^that's the exact reason I've stopped reading poker books. They all pretty much fail when it comes to that sort of thing. I was especially disappointed in the Moshman heads up book in that regard.

I'd be happy to have someoe explain to me why my thinking is bad.

If we assume he's 3betting with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/AK/AQ,and a reasonable % of light 3bets, and we call his 3 bet in position, the pot will be about 23 bb's on the flop, and he'll likely be cbetting most boards for 14-20 bb's. I feel like AA/KK/QQ isn't the majority of his range, so if we call the 3bet and flop an overpair, a set, or perhaps when the only overcard that come is a "Q," we can raise his cbet (pot committing ourselves) in which case he'll usually fold the hands we beat (which I feel should be WAY over 50% of his hands on our 'favourable' boards). He'll probably shove over our raise with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT and even sometimes 99 or 88, and he'll shove draws, and maybe sometimes just his bare overs, especially if he's "taking a stand."

We can also call/reevaluate based on the turn card and his turn action, folding or shoving on the turn.

We can happily fold on flops that have A, K, or AK, AQ, KQ combinations since we'll be crushed on those boards most of the time. We'll get bluffed by his 67s fairly often, but it seems like a profitable post flop situation nonetheless.

I feel like with position here, we can make good decisions post-flop with our jacks, and the 4bet folding is better left for our bluffs and sometimes AQ/AJ type hands. I don't see why 4bet/calling is so bad. In an aggresive 6 max game, I see players getting 100bb's in all the time with AK, TT and sometimes even AQ or 99, and if he thinks we're full of it, he can 5-bet shove many other hands, thinking he has fold equity (that I think we shouldn't be giving him).

So in this spot, I would've ranked the choices as...

call the 3bet or 4bet/call (eitehr one seems good to me)

4bet/fold
fold

Could you give any links that give more detail on what you wrote. More information on

• "the 3 betting KQ v 87s v A4s v 33 debates"
• "the right balance ... between those different sets of hands based on how those hands play post-flop or against 4bets"
• "how A4s fares against the hands that the original raiser both 4bets with and calls with"
• "the math on various blocking cards"
• other similar links

wow... this is all pretty complex... basically, the 3betting world began in earnest in late 2007. Before that, only the elite really understood. By Summer of 2008, players needed a good 3betting game to win at Mid Stakes, so there are quite a few good posts from that time period. WARNING: these will take a lot of slow reading and work to understand.
A Bad Habit of 3-betting and Range Choice
THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-
Theory post: Is reraising mid pairs preflop ever good?
400NL - 44 shove preflop
Polarizing your range
Secrets of Short Handed No Limit Hold'em-by Danny Ashman-TURNED MY WORLD UPSIDE DOWN! (read RedJoker's posts)
If people are 3 betting me lightly... What am I calling with?
8s9s calling out of the blinds okay

now, there are probably better, more cohesive takes on it these days, but these are the posts/threads that I really learned from.
There is also the whole idea on blocking cards and how ranges hit various flops. The best stuff that I've seen on this is Professor Plotkin's video series on deuces cracked.

So, HOOCG did present a way to look at distributions in the book. However, the 3betting discussion did straight seeing all 5 cards EV analysis. If you want to learn a lot, put in the work yourself of various types of hands on various flops against raising and calling 3bet ranges.

Link?

here

Damn - those RedJoker posts are good !!

Thanx..

haha i agree with u about it being a great book for beginners, but a new player needs to learn about bankroll managment, i know that i screwed it up 25+ times myself before finally getting it down right

ty to myturn2raise for the video suggestion. I'm definitely going to watch it.

I posted in SSNL about his recommendations of defending from BB by 3 betting about twice as many hands as you flat (about pg 400).

SSNL regs did't seem too impressed.

TL to repost but thread is here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/39...-6-max-836922/

If you want to see how much the game has changed, just check out this thread about 3bets and AK from 2006

I hate nothing more than the fact that I didn't discover poker until 2007.

+1


... wait wait wait, I can think of many things I hate more than that fact

nice work Harrington
just what i needed ,to transition from tournements,and live play
videos are great to watch ,but you cant beat a good book

looks like some gold left lying around here and there in this book

Is this book only for 6-max, or also relevant for full ring games?