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Old 07-12-2014, 07:20 PM   #126
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
Hey guys im doing 2nd exercise on page 35. How can i use my database to find out how much of a pot can i capture if i check back weak high card hand or if i c bet it on KJ5r flop. Im using PT4.
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figured it out
Cool, so... how do you do it in PT4, in case anyone asks in the future?
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:21 PM   #127
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by Befeltingu12 View Post
Hey Will,
Great book so far. I was looking at the preflop chapter because I have been changing my own preflop strategy a bit. Unless I am missing something the SB limp-reraise range is not included for 7BB Deep in the ranges chart. You do say that "He jamms even less than he folds with a range containing some middle pairs and high suited connectors" on pg 346. Did you just leave that out?
Yes, I didn't include ranges of most actions that are very rarely taken. I think those figures take up enough space already .
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:22 PM   #128
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by pasita View Post
Kind of regarding the above: how much of the mixedness of the strategies do you think actually happens because your algorithms haven't converged yet? On p 359 you suspect the 20BB open jamming hands might be because of this.

One would think that with these stack sizes, going for the "Fundamental theorem of chasing" -i.e. threatening to have the nuts on any possible board and situation- wouldn't matter too much.

Did you ever try
-letting one of the algorithms run way longer than normal to see if the mixedness diminishes
-hand-tune some small mixes (say fixing a 90/10 mix to a pure strategy, or clean the mixes among offsuit/suited versions of a hand) and see if the player actually gets hurt doing this? This especially in cases where XYo and XYs hands both employ mixed strategies of jamming... take J8s/J8o from the "BB jam facing a limp" table at 10BB, p348, as the first example I come by. I could see arguments either always jamming J8s (it's the stronger hand) or always jamming J8o (it's never needed for nuts when play commences "deep" from flop on, but J8s can be), but can't get the idea of both of them mixing.
I don't think this is really an issue. If this were the case, then we'd notice because the EVs of the actions would still be different. Re: suited and unsuited hands, suited is not always strictly better than unsuited -- it's more complicated than that.
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:22 PM   #129
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
Maybe any1 wants to explain to me how you did 2nd exercise on page 40? When im calculating the resaults looks like villain have to 3 bet even more than 100% value hands because if he bluffs he almost always looses except for 15% of pot what he wins. But my weakest calling range vs his value range has around 31-35% (the same equity preflop vs villains value range like villains bluff vs my calling range.) But im in position so i can win more than his bluffs OOP

Bluff catching indifference when villain 3 bets 2bb - 5bb
S-2=V(S-5+0.35*10)+(1-V)(S+5-0.15*10)

What did i do wrong here?
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Originally Posted by Befeltingu12 View Post
Minotaurs,

I think the equation is correct. That is the same thing that I got. I wasnt sure why we would use one of the equations from the SB Bet-Or-check game that he mentioned. Did you look back at chapter 7.3.2 from first book? I think your 35% is too high. 35% might be your equity but vs his value range I think it is safe too assume that you would be capturing less than 30% of the pot. You want the percentage of the pot you expect to capture just like the estimated 15% that is being used.
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It was all right for river SB's bet or check game because there werent future cards to come so BB's BC's always loose or win.

Now in preflop 3 bet game every1 can hit a quads. Do you really think i dont capture at least 30% of pot (with hands like T9o or K2s) when i call his 3 bet and BB happens to hold his value range this time? Its not like His value range is only AA and KK. From equation looks like if my BC's equity is >=30% villain should never bluff 3 bet.

[Bluff catching indifference when villain 3 bets 2bb - 5bb
S-2=V(S-5+0.35*10)+(1-V)(S+5-0.15*10)]

There must be something wrong here
So you're assuming that our marginal 3-bet defending hands capture 35% of the pot vs villain's value and 85% of the pot vs his 3-bet bluffs? I agree with Befeltingu12 that that's probably a bit too ambitious. Maybe something like 25 and 50% would be more reasonable, which I believe leads to V=80%. Anyway, as we see later, this model isn't super appropriate for preflop play.
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:24 PM   #130
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by mmowgli View Post
I'm not very sure I understood correctly the raise sizings allowed of 1/2 pot in the flop situations.
If the SB makes a c-bet and it is raised, why the folding frequency for the naive bluffing indifference is 1/3?(page 267). It means that in a pot which has 4BB, if the SB c-bet 2BB, the BB raise of 1/2 pot is to 6BB doesn't it?
My calculation results to be 50%.
If players start with 25BB and are now in a single raised pot: EVBB (bluff) = EVBB (fold);17BB*%call + 29BB*(1-%call)= 23BB, so %call=1/2.
Anyone can help?
Yea, the 1/3 number is an error. Naively, a half-pot bluff (e.g. 3BB into a pot of 6BB) will need to work 1/3 of the time for us to break even, and thats the number I had stuck in my head, but as stevepa described above, the result for raises is different. Here, risking 6BB to win 6BB -> 50%. Thanks for pointing out the errata.
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:26 PM   #131
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by bucky104 View Post
In your flop play and c bet dynamic section, you mention that by checking back the flop with our marginal/middling hands, we put ourselves in a PvBC spot that is often difficult to play. But by doing this we make our cbet range polar and very easy and profitable to play. Are you suggesting in a vacuum that it might be more profitable to play hands of this strength as a bet on the flop, but they are checked for the sake of our range and strategy? I'm guessing you didn't mean it quite like that, but it is how I interpreted it, was hoping you could clear that up.

Thanks,

Steve
Suppose we flop a weak made hand in the SB and have a cbetting decision. If our poker client had a button that said "immediately show down, skipping turn and river action", we'd probably usually want to click it. Future rounds of betting won't usually help us capture more of the pot on average. So, that would be the most profitable way to play those hands at the same time that betting was the best play with other hands. Ofc there's no such button, but maybe just trying to check down is almost as good if Villain plays passively vs missed cbets. If he doesn't, maybe our most profitable strategy involves cbetting those hands and/or slowplaying strong ones.
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:27 PM   #132
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
Hey, any news about video pack?
Video pack is out!
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:11 PM   #133
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by mmowgli View Post
I think there is a errata on the second paragraph of section 14.2.2.
"he makes his standard c-bet of half-pot 44% of the time and checks back the remaining 58%" and in the first paragraph is explained that he also open-jams but not with what frequency. So maybe "58%" means 48%?
Yea, 58+44+more is definitely too many percents. The 58 should be 54.
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:11 PM   #134
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by mmowgli View Post
The figure 14.27 is the same as figure 14.26, so it seems the image of the ranges that should represent the strategy on the Kc3d7h flop are the ranges corresponding to the Js8h3h flop.
There is not a problem because the strategy on the Kc3d7h flop is quite well described on chapter 14.4.1 but I think this is useful for the errata.
Well, it's kind of a big deal :/. Here's the correct Figure 14.27:

Spoiler:
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:12 PM   #135
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by stevepa View Post
In the Equity Array video you mention that to make the preflop equity array takes forever so you've included the file, but I don't see it anywhere in what I've downloaded. Is there something I'm missing or can you (or the publisher) upload the file?

Really enjoying the videos so far!
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We're adding this in the downloads area later today. Sorry about that!
Yea I forgot to include it originally, but it should be there now. Glad you're enjoying the videos!
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:12 PM   #136
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by kingofcool View Post
Why is the video-pack an .exe file?
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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
for you to not share it as easily with ur buddies
Yea, it's a copy protection thing. We decided it wouldn't be too inconvenient for people here, since these videos really need to be watched at a computer anyway.
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:13 PM   #137
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by moving shapes View Post
Read your first book and really enjoyed it. Just ordered volume 2, looking forward to getting into it.

Have you looked at any of the annual computer poker competition hunl hands and do you think they're useful to analyse?

- maybe not useful to look at individual hands without knowing their full strategy. (and it's just a huge decision tree anyway)

Ben Sulsky reviewed some hands in a video and it was quite interesting..
I took a look at some briefly. The format of their hand histories is weird, so I wrote a converter to make them look like Stars HHs so I could look at them in TTVis. Was interesting to see how they play, but I'm not sure they're strong enough players that it makes sense to try to emulate them. I'm also not super interested in 200BB play, personally.
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:13 PM   #138
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Is there an official errata list published anywhere or is this the only error found?
I believe all the errors I know of are mentioned in this thread. There'll be an official errata on the book's webpage after a bit more time passes.
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Old 07-14-2014, 10:49 PM   #139
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by yaqh View Post
Yea I forgot to include it originally, but it should be there now. Glad you're enjoying the videos!
Yep it is there now, thanks. I must say I'm enjoying them less now after a mistaken set of quotes and writing iDecPt instead of iChild in one equation cost me the last 2.5 hours of my life It's good you left your debugging in the videos or I may have never found my mistakes.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:27 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by stevepa View Post
Yep it is there now, thanks. I must say I'm enjoying them less now after a mistaken set of quotes and writing iDecPt instead of iChild in one equation cost me the last 2.5 hours of my life It's good you left your debugging in the videos or I may have never found my mistakes.
Hah, yea, unfortunately debugging's an unavoidable part of programming. I think time spent practicing is time reasonably well spent, even if it can be frustrating.

Last edited by yaqh; 07-14-2014 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:59 PM   #141
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Um, maybe a couple other fyi type things about preventing bugs and debugging, in case anyone's interested:

- There are things called debuggers which basically let you execute programs one line at a time -- seeing what functions are called when, the values of all the variables at every point, etc. Very useful in figuring out what's going wrong. iPython has some debugger features built-in.

- Testing functions is an important part of software development. It's not a bad idea at all to just think of writing some tests for a function as basically just part of writing the function in that you always do it. Of course tests help you make sure that the code works correctly when you write it, but at least as importantly, it gives you an easy way to check if changes you make in the future break anything.

Last edited by yaqh; 07-15-2014 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 07-15-2014, 01:37 AM   #142
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Just finished book 2 and am eager to get into the videos.

Read somewhere the author is a doctoral candidate. Seriously doubt its in poker but this book could easily qualify as a magnum opus nonetheless imo.

This might be the best non fiction book I have ever read, kudos.
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:33 PM   #143
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Unhappy Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Hey. I already sent message to Will but ill post it here as well just to maybe get any thoughts on this faster.
Its about Equity Array video. When i wrote the code i got this ugly error

Quote:
ValueError Traceback (most recent call last)
<ipython-input-66-72e875fb97fa> in <module>()
----> 1 myEArray = EquityArray(board)

<ipython-input-63-5c9ce1e0f1bb> in __init__(self, b)
7 def __init__(self, b):
8 self.board = b
----> 9 self.eArray = numpy.zeros((numHands, numHands, numHands, numHands))
10 if os.path.isfile(self.getFilename()):
11 self.eArray = numpy.load(self.Filename)

ValueError: array is too big.
It points out that my 4 dimentional array is too big. But Will didnt have any problems in his video. Any thoughts?
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Old 07-15-2014, 05:38 PM   #144
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
Hey. I already sent message to Will but ill post it here as well just to maybe get any thoughts on this faster.
Its about Equity Array video. When i wrote the code i got this ugly error



It points out that my 4 dimentional array is too big. But Will didnt have any problems in his video. Any thoughts?
Ya should be numCards instead of numHands
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Old 07-15-2014, 05:41 PM   #145
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
Hey. I already sent message to Will but ill post it here as well just to maybe get any thoughts on this faster.
Its about Equity Array video. When i wrote the code i got this ugly error



It points out that my 4 dimentional array is too big. But Will didnt have any problems in his video. Any thoughts?
hey it all started to work but i have following question. When i created that .npy file for 863K board it took 57 MB of my computers memory. And that is just 1 board. There are countless combinations of boards and i cant give them all 57 MB. Also you told that creating preflop file would take about 1-2 months. Why is that file so small (also 57 MB) ? Just 100 combos of diferent boards would take 5GB's of space. Am i understanding something wrong?
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:00 PM   #146
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

minotaurs, I am by no means an expert but I'll take a shot.

Why is that (preflop) file so small?
All the files should be the same size, they are essentially the same. Each is a 52x52x52x52 array filled with equity numbers (which are between 0 and 1.)

For the preflop file, those equity #s take much longer to calculate because the program needs to run through every 5 card runout for every hand vs every hand instead of just every turn/river runout for filling a flop array. Quick #s: there are 2,598,960 different 5 card runouts, 1176 different turn/river cards for a given flop, so the preflop equity array should take about 2210 times as long to create as a flop equity array, but the files will be the same size.

Just 100 combos of diff boards would take 5GB's of space. Am I understanding something wrong?
That is correct. But you can always erase the equity array after you're done with the spot, it will get remade if you ever go back to it. Just don't erase the preflop one as that one takes forever to build.
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:22 PM   #147
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by JudgeHoldem1848 View Post
Just finished book 2 and am eager to get into the videos.

Read somewhere the author is a doctoral candidate. Seriously doubt its in poker but this book could easily qualify as a magnum opus nonetheless imo.

This might be the best non fiction book I have ever read, kudos.
No longer a candidate -- I graduated! Thanks for the kind words.
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:25 PM   #148
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
Hey. I already sent message to Will but ill post it here as well just to maybe get any thoughts on this faster.
Its about Equity Array video. When i wrote the code i got this ugly error



It points out that my 4 dimentional array is too big. But Will didnt have any problems in his video. Any thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Befeltingu12 View Post
Ya should be numCards instead of numHands
Yup, a 1326x1326x1326x1326 array is waaay bigger than a 52x52x52x52 array.
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:54 PM   #149
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
hey it all started to work but i have following question. When i created that .npy file for 863K board it took 57 MB of my computers memory. And that is just 1 board. There are countless combinations of boards and i cant give them all 57 MB. Also you told that creating preflop file would take about 1-2 months. Why is that file so small (also 57 MB) ? Just 100 combos of diferent boards would take 5GB's of space. Am i understanding something wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevepa View Post
minotaurs, I am by no means an expert but I'll take a shot.

Why is that (preflop) file so small?
All the files should be the same size, they are essentially the same. Each is a 52x52x52x52 array filled with equity numbers (which are between 0 and 1.)

For the preflop file, those equity #s take much longer to calculate because the program needs to run through every 5 card runout for every hand vs every hand instead of just every turn/river runout for filling a flop array. Quick #s: there are 2,598,960 different 5 card runouts, 1176 different turn/river cards for a given flop, so the preflop equity array should take about 2210 times as long to create as a flop equity array, but the files will be the same size.

Just 100 combos of diff boards would take 5GB's of space. Am I understanding something wrong?
That is correct. But you can always erase the equity array after you're done with the spot, it will get remade if you ever go back to it. Just don't erase the preflop one as that one takes forever to build.
Yup, thanks for the good explanation Steve.

Worth reiterating something that was mentioned a couple times in the vids -- you can reduce that memory usage by a couple factors of two pretty easily if you represent the data differently.
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Old 07-16-2014, 04:29 AM   #150
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Tnx guys every1 for responses Im also really enjoying video pack so far and the best is yet to come
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