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Old 05-20-2014, 05:30 AM   #51
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Yeah thats what I did, really the only reason I posted that is because if you work out the spots with more standard cashgame dynamics there is essentially no PvBC dynamic left. Its quite rare that a villain will cap himself on the flop on such a dry board by raising the top of his range. That being said there are very often parts of our range that can play so polarizing, but combo/% wise its much less often then Will discussed in his book based on the examples.

In either case the concept definitely is explained great just I think the chosen spots were slightly off to show it. Imo the PvBC dynamic shows up much more often when flop goes check-check.
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Old 05-20-2014, 07:50 AM   #52
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

I could use some help here: p. 45
"Why is it that Hero's GTO strategy cannot involve either always checking or always leading here with all his near-nut hands?"

What's the difference of this scenario compared to the full street [0,1] game from MoP, where Hero just bets out with a fixed portion of his range, then check calls some and check folds some?
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Old 05-20-2014, 08:11 AM   #53
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

p81, BB holds the perfect mix of nuts and air.
"the SB's calling frequency would be completely unconstrained - any frequency between 0 and 100 percent would be co-optimal".
I'd think it's worth noting that if SB announces his strategy as "call 0%", BB can't exploit that, as he just doesn't have the needed extra bluffs to do that. But if SB announces his strategy as "call 100%", BB can now stop bluffing.
Shouldn't the "100%" be 1-alpha?
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:40 PM   #54
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Will, could you share full solutions for pre-flop play in the same way you did for examples in volume 1? Textual representation of ranges where we could import it into equity visualiser would be helpful and knowing all decision points for sb and bb also.

Last edited by Qlka; 05-23-2014 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 05-25-2014, 02:58 PM   #55
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by pasita View Post
I could use some help here: p. 45
"Why is it that Hero's GTO strategy cannot involve either always checking or always leading here with all his near-nut hands?"

What's the difference of this scenario compared to the full street [0,1] game from MoP, where Hero just bets out with a fixed portion of his range, then check calls some and check folds some?
I think it just has to do with the implications of hero's checking range if villain is betting all his nuts, and near nuts, then checking only weak hands. Villain will start to value bet very thin and hero can then increase his EV by checking a stronger hand. I'm wondering why then hero also cannot play a mixed strategy with his pure nut hands?
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Old 05-25-2014, 07:26 PM   #56
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Villain will start to value bet very thin and hero can then increase his EV by checking a stronger hand.
Logically, that could make sense, but unless I missed something obvious, MoP solved the same game using a pure strategy, i.e. predefined and fixed bet, chcall, chfold action regions.
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Old 05-26-2014, 04:18 PM   #57
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by pasita View Post
p81, BB holds the perfect mix of nuts and air.
"the SB's calling frequency would be completely unconstrained - any frequency between 0 and 100 percent would be co-optimal".
I'd think it's worth noting that if SB announces his strategy as "call 0%", BB can't exploit that, as he just doesn't have the needed extra bluffs to do that. But if SB announces his strategy as "call 100%", BB can now stop bluffing.
Shouldn't the "100%" be 1-alpha?
My thoughts exactly! While BB can't decide to add any more bluffs given the range he gets there with, he certainly can decide to never bluff if SB calls more than 1-alpha.
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:13 AM   #58
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Hey guys.

I've actually (proof-)read an advanced version of the book and I can tell you without reservation, it's great. I don't think there's any need for me to do a detailed synopsis or review since a) you'd be crazy to buy this book without reading volume I first and b) having read volume I you'll be able to make your own well-informed judgement. Nevertheless, I can say with confidence that this second volume deals with more advanced concepts, in more advanced ways, and that the author's writing has come along nicely, albeit that he remains a scholar and not a novelist. What is to his immense credit is the fact that he sought me out specifically because in the other thread I had brought to light the most significant textual flaws in the first volume. So hopefully this one will be blemish-free, but in any case, just buy it ffs. I may or may not have read some poker texts that are priced at upwards of $1000, but here's one that is of a similar quality and 500 times cheaper. So, I mean, just stop being a nit and buy it, basically.
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These 2 volumes and the MoP are serious poker theory books unmatched in the poker literature afaik. I can't see how this book has "similar" quality to, say, a mediocre book shamelessly selling for $1850 like this one http://www.amazon.com/Let-There-Be-R.../dp/0982402252. As a semi-joke if anyone would pay for a few EC2 instances to solve the games the author solved for this book, $1850 wouldn't probably be enough :-P, not to mention the effort of making sense of the solutions.

Anyway I also had the privilege to read a draft of vol. 2 and I agree with you that this is an advanced book with a wealth of new information and it is highly recommended to anyone seriously interested in poker.

Thanks again you guys (and unlimited too!) for the read-thrus and many, many edits and suggestions. I've high hopes that the book will prove to have very few errata thanks to you.

Also, thanks for the thorough review, Semper . How's the study group coming along?
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:17 AM   #59
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by _Z_O_O_M_ View Post
Are the books more applicable to HU cash or HU sngs?
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Originally Posted by kingofcool View Post
Both, or honestly any poker in general.

You should read the free excerpts though as it is not a book for everyone (or even most).
If you want to really dig deep and improve and not be handed a solution on a platter it could be for you though.
Yea, I think this is fair. Check out Vol 1's thread for more opinions. I found one spot where I answered this previously:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=106

but I think there are a number of opinions from other people in there too..
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:20 AM   #60
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by Dear Diary View Post
Found an aesthetic error while skimming.

On section 14.7's "you should now", the same page exist three times in a row. Could be my reader (ipad, ibooks app) but i doubt it.

On another note, i much prefer the graphics in my volume 1 kindle edition to the volume 2 epub edition. It felt much clearer and the images were sharper in volume 1. Not sure if that's "bad editing" or if it's a weakness with the epub format.
I don't think these issues show up in the paper version, and I haven't seen any of the electronic ones except the PDF which also looks fine. You're reading the epub version from the publisher's website? What device are you using?
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:49 AM   #61
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by SemPeR View Post
Hey all,

Question, spurred by an attempt to answer the question on Page 261: about weaker kickers checking back. My answer was there are semi-subtle effects that lower kickers have that exert non-trivial influence on CFs: trip domination, and blockers (highcards that would normally play back vs a bet). I can't think of anything else at the moment.

Question is:
Is the graph on page 253 correct? The page is a 3x2, and I'm looking at the final pair of charts: SB's cbet and check back ranges.

First:
Showing why I think the chart counts are complete and correct:
I put the preflop range into PPT like so:
"(AA-22,AxKx-Ax2x,AxKy-Ax2y,KxQx-Kx2x,KxQy-Kx2y,QxJx-Qx2x,QxJy-Qx2y,JxTx-Jx2x,JxTy-Jx2y,Tx9x-Tx2x,Tx9y-Tx2y,9x8x-9x2x,9x8y-9x4y,8x7x-8x3x,8x7y-8x5y,7x6x-7x4x,7x6y,6x5x,6x4x,5x4x)@100,(7x5y)@10", and got 947 combos otf: Kc3d7h.

If I add the combos for that decision point in the chart: 449.7+498.3 = 948.

Second:
A number of boxes, for example 87o and 97o, do not add up to 100%/fully filled when you combine SB c-bet vs SB check back. This should not be correct if those 2 charts add to the right number of combos: SB's strategy is supposed to be fully enumerated.

So what's going on here?

Anyway, great book that keeps getting better. Thanks Will.


edit: adding image:

http://imgur.com/6WOQvHd

Left is the cbet. Right is the check back.
88's frequencies match, since SB is betting 100% and checking 0%

87o's frequencies do not match, ~30% is missing from the charts.
97o's frequencies are similar. They don't add up to 100%.

But the combo count is right. So the visualization software is buggy?
Sharp eye. The difference is card removal effects. For example, 87o -- only the combos with 7s, 7d, and 7c are in the range. The combos with 7h are of course not in the player's range, since the 7h is on board. So, the SB's checking and betting ranges combined only contain 9 of the 12 possible 87o combos. If you think I should have adjusted for that in the figures, then you're probably right, but anyway the visualization software is faithfully representing the correct ranges.
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:52 AM   #62
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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I thought I read in the other thread that a video pack showing how to write a tool in Ipython to compute equilibrium strategies for decision trees and starting distributions will be coming out. Or is this information in the video pack that already exists?
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Is paperback coming out somewere in the end of May?
And any1 know something about video pack?
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Originally Posted by minotaurs View Post
Dont know if any1 who has info is even reading this but is there any news about 2nd video pack?
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Any rough indication of when this might be out?
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May 16

"There isn't a release date set. It'll be a few weeks at least, but possibly a decent bit longer -- getting it done right is more important to me than getting it done fast. Thanks for your interest, though -- I'm looking forward to getting them out, too. "

http://husng.com/content/interview-w...#comment-40129
^ this. although I made a lot of progress this weekend.
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:55 AM   #63
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by risk2Dupside View Post
p.141 - trying to reconcile your discussion regarding the K832r board about the draws in arrow 4 that prefer betting to checking, the weak hands in arrow 5 that are indifferent, and then the airball give ups. where does the 64o hand discussed on p.122 fit in?
The conflict there comes from the fact that I used a simple model of the two-street play in the earlier discussion but a much more detailed one to make the for the EV distribution on pg 141. You're right -- the results differ in their play of the low gutshots. I hadn't realized that before.

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Originally Posted by risk2Dupside View Post
Also is there any software that actually spits out a ranking of holdings with their equity vs a range on certain boards (similar to what you can achieve by sliding along the EDVis graph)? Alternatively having this function in EDVis (ie paste enumerated list to notepad) would be sweet.
I haven't used it myself, but someone mentioned Pokercruncher to me in this context recently, so it might be worth looking into.
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:59 AM   #64
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by SemPeR View Post
Another question to discuss, for anyone who is up for it.
More important than whether the charts on p253 are right or not.

If:
1. Chapter 15's model allows for SB to have an open jamming range. (Page 342)
2. Shove/fold wins more money than the model...by 2.6bb/100 (Page 337)
3. Why wouldn't the model simply force shove/fold by itself the same way we assume the "model SB" would jam in postflop spots that are better for it (as explained in the previous chapter, on the 765xxy flop)?


Page 335, Verbatim:
"Any time a player can bet or raise, his sizing options are all-in or 1/2-pot unless there is less than one pot-sized bet left behind, in which case all-in is the only option."

Assuming "any time" also refers to preflop, I'm having a hard time understanding why the computed pseudo-equilibrium 7bb strategy wouldn't automatically "chose" to play push/fold from the SB.

Thanks,
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You might want to check the book again: it says that in the model the SB wins 2.5bb at 7bb and the shove/fold game only wins 1.7bb.
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Originally Posted by SemPeR View Post
I see. My mistake. Thank you.

And from Volume 1, the MR/shove game approximates the shove/fold up to just under 7bb, so its value might be very slightly higher.
Yup, thanks erdnase!
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:13 AM   #65
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by oxiej View Post
Page 70 of the book (Epub version) you discuss the check-call range on those boards. I know your trying to point out the concepts behind near PvBC play but I really think that excluding every single top pair on those boards is just way to far off.

I play 100bb 6max, so maybe I should adapt my thinking more to the 25bb stacks you mention but still don't see how we can assume villain will just raise every single top pair, and this has a significant effect on the rest of the section aswell as the nut% of the Polar player drops way down (its probably more like 5-8% ingame instead of the assumed 15-20%).

Personally I find that in Midstakes cash the more likely near PvBC situation (arguably by far) is the turn starting range when flop goes check-check rather then check-call, atleast in 100bb 6max.



One more point I'd like to make is about the GGOP betsizing, this is definitely an interesting idea but again I don't think you mention the potential drawbacks deeper stacks bring for the concept. Probably beyond the aim of the book but it stands to reason that anyone who would attempt to attack capped ranges this hard in actual gameplay puts in so much action comparatively to the standard Cbet-call dynamic that slowplaying the top of your range is going to be the most obvious adjustment ever. On top of that GGOP or more generally big overbets thin out villains range (cause he has to call much less often) so quickly that even a minor % of slowplays can have a significant effect.
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Originally Posted by oxiej View Post
Yeah thats what I did, really the only reason I posted that is because if you work out the spots with more standard cashgame dynamics there is essentially no PvBC dynamic left. Its quite rare that a villain will cap himself on the flop on such a dry board by raising the top of his range. That being said there are very often parts of our range that can play so polarizing, but combo/% wise its much less often then Will discussed in his book based on the examples.

In either case the concept definitely is explained great just I think the chosen spots were slightly off to show it. Imo the PvBC dynamic shows up much more often when flop goes check-check.
I'm not familiar with the Epub page numbering, but if it's about the same as in the paper version, we're working in the context of a 30 BB deep HU hand on a dry board. Playing any top pair aggressively on the flop is at least reasonable there -- certainly it's a vv different spot in that regard than 100bb 6max.

Of course you're right, though, that putting no top pairs in the BB's flop check-call range there is a simplifying assumption. There are 4 chapters on turn play, and you're in the first of them. The idea was to add additional complexity in each subsequent chapter, but we had to start somewhere!

Proper betsizing (and when GGOP is relevant in particular) is a recurring theme later in the book, and PvBC-ish situations after the flop checks through also get a lot of airtime, particularly in Chapter 12.
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:02 AM   #66
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by Qlka View Post
Will, could you share full solutions for pre-flop play in the same way you did for examples in volume 1? Textual representation of ranges where we could import it into equity visualiser would be helpful and knowing all decision points for sb and bb also.
Imho the full solutions shouldn't be published as this data can be used for botting or to build the next "pokersnowie" for short stacks. afaik only a few stack sizes were solved but still...
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:40 AM   #67
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

but this is only preflop...
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:28 AM   #68
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

I don't see the way that could be imported into an EQ visualizer.
In the river examples, if we called a hand indifferent between 2 actions, different hand combinations of the same hand (e.g. JdTd and JcTc of JTs) would often strictly prefer one action or the other one due to removal effects.
But preflop when a lot of hands are indifferent at equilibrium, it means that each hand combination of the same hand probably should take an action with a non-zero probability (e.g JdTd and JcTc open-shove 31.4% of the time and limp 68.6% of the time, each one). I don't know any EQ visualizer that can do this.
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:50 AM   #69
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasita View Post
I could use some help here: p. 45
"Why is it that Hero's GTO strategy cannot involve either always checking or always leading here with all his near-nut hands?"

What's the difference of this scenario compared to the full street [0,1] game from MoP, where Hero just bets out with a fixed portion of his range, then check calls some and check folds some?
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Originally Posted by MrPete View Post
I think it just has to do with the implications of hero's checking range if villain is betting all his nuts, and near nuts, then checking only weak hands. Villain will start to value bet very thin and hero can then increase his EV by checking a stronger hand. I'm wondering why then hero also cannot play a mixed strategy with his pure nut hands?
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Logically, that could make sense, but unless I missed something obvious, MoP solved the same game using a pure strategy, i.e. predefined and fixed bet, chcall, chfold action regions.

So, I'm not quite sure what game from MoP you're talking about, but I found it useful to look at the game I'm talking about in more detail later in the book, and I stuck a full solution in Appendix 13.10 (p240).

That TestYourself question is mostly just meant to get you to go over the same line of reasoning given on the previous page, and I guess you can do that, but maybe you don't see how it applies to this game, since you think BB is always leading with his strongest hands at the equilibrium of this game?

On pg 44, I said what I mean by "near-nut" hands -- a hand strong enough that we'll always try to get all-in, and whenever Villain has a better hand, he'll always try to get all-in too. Basically, it just means that whenever we have such a hand and Villain has better, we're guaranteed to go broke.

This applies to a full 1/3 of the BB's range in this game (in the symmetric distributions case, with B=S=P). The top 1/3 of BB's range is actually indifferent between leading and check-calling at equilibrium, and indieed, he sometimes leads and sometimes checks with hands in this region. And SB puts in the same amount of money, exactly, versus both actions.

In the way the solution is normally structured, BB leads with his strongest hands and check-calls some weaker ones, but that solution isn't actually unique. Other structures (which can involve check-calling with the nuts) are co-optimal. I talk about this and this game more in one of my videos.
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:08 AM   #70
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qlka View Post
Will, could you share full solutions for pre-flop play in the same way you did for examples in volume 1? Textual representation of ranges where we could import it into equity visualiser would be helpful and knowing all decision points for sb and bb also.
I believe the game trees I used (or at least the preflop part of them) are fully specified at the beginning of section 15.2 (pgs 335-7). But as far as the ranges in numerical format, yea I can do that -- give me a few days.

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Originally Posted by erdnase17 View Post
Imho the full solutions shouldn't be published as this data can be used for botting or to build the next "pokersnowie" for short stacks. afaik only a few stack sizes were solved but still...
TBH, I don't think there's any info there that someone who's motivated couldn't get out of the graphs in the book.

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Originally Posted by mmowgli View Post
I don't see the way that could be imported into an EQ visualizer.
In the river examples, if we called a hand indifferent between 2 actions, different hand combinations of the same hand (e.g. JdTd and JcTc of JTs) would often strictly prefer one action or the other one due to removal effects.
But preflop when a lot of hands are indifferent at equilibrium, it means that each hand combination of the same hand probably should take an action with a non-zero probability (e.g JdTd and JcTc open-shove 31.4% of the time and limp 68.6% of the time, each one). I don't know any EQ visualizer that can do this.
EDVis can if you input ranges using the Edit box in the (undocumented) numerical format
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:47 PM   #71
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by yaqh View Post
So, I'm not quite sure what game from MoP you're talking about, but I found it useful to look at the game I'm talking about in more detail later in the book, and I stuck a full solution in Appendix 13.10 (p240).
I meant MoP #17.1, where P=1. Which seems to be exactly the same solution as in A13.10.
Quote:
but maybe you don't see how it applies to this game, since you think BB is always leading with his strongest hands at the equilibrium of this game?
Quote:
and indieed, he sometimes leads and sometimes checks with hands in this region.
Yep, I don't see how it applies. Can SB somehow exploit if BB always uses the structuring from MoP or A13.10?

The co-optimality of the "check everything" from p44 and using the "bet-chcall-fold" regions came as a surprise to me. It would seem likely (though not obviously necessary) that getting the extra strategic option of betting out would help BB. Also, looking at MoP 11.3, a half street [0,1] game, IP will bet only top .222 of his range (+ bluffs) for a PSB when checked to (i.e. always), and OOP calls .444 of his range.

So I guess what I'm asking now is: if BB is sometimes playing the half-street-game, ie. check everything as per p.44, and sometimes playing the full street game (i.e. check the middle part of his range), and SB doesn't know which one it is this time (but knows the percentages), you're saying that SB still pots the top .333 (+bluffs) of his hands every time? He doesn't care at all that he's often facing the stronger checking range?
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:01 PM   #72
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

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Originally Posted by yaqh View Post
I believe the game trees I used (or at least the preflop part of them) are fully specified at the beginning of section 15.2 (pgs 335-7). But as far as the ranges in numerical format, yea I can do that -- give me a few days.



TBH, I don't think there's any info there that someone who's motivated couldn't get out of the graphs in the book.



EDVis can if you input ranges using the Edit box in the (undocumented) numerical format
I didn't notice Qlka asked for the preflop data only. That would be interesting to see since the ranges in the book don't include every possible preflop action.
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:58 PM   #73
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

The kindle version is on amazon fyi.
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Old 05-30-2014, 02:36 PM   #74
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

pg. 267 of PDF. SB folds vs BB's half-pot check-raise more than the naive frequency of 33% and I'm not sure I understand why. If BB is deciding whether to bluff check-raise or fold and SB folds more than naive frequency, BB has incentive to never fold and always bluff check-raise, right?

I understand that on K73r BB's bluffs have less equity vs SB's continuing range than on QT9, so it seems to be that SB can fold relatively more on K73, but folding 42.3% of the time seems way too high. What am I missing?

Great book, btw. I'm really enjoying it so far.
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Old 06-01-2014, 11:04 AM   #75
pasita
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Re: Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold’em v.2: Strategies for Multiple Streets by Will Tipton

Quote:
This applies to a full 1/3 of the BB's range in this game (in the symmetric distributions case, with B=S=P). The top 1/3 of BB's range is actually indifferent between leading and check-calling at equilibrium, and indieed, he sometimes leads and sometimes checks with hands in this region. And SB puts in the same amount of money, exactly, versus both actions.
Anyone care to help me here, can't see what I'm missing? If BB always checks everything, shouldn't SB play like MoP 11.3 (the half street game), i.e. bet only top 22% and bottom 11%? If BB sometimes plays that and sometimes has a bet out strategy, how can SB switch directly to betting top 33% and bottom 17% ?
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