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Old 03-20-2017, 05:48 AM   #151
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchronic View Post
As far as I know I said Liston quit and wasn't mentally tough, but I didn't say he tilted.

I then moved on to Duran whom I did say tilted in the most extreme meaning of the word, using it as an example from my perspective, because that is the kind of thing I've never seen at the poker table. Total mind freak. I'm sure it's happened, especially on line probably, near nervous breakdown type incidents.
You wrote in Post #144:

Quote:
There is a great example of the kind of tilt (total brain meltdown) that Malmuth considers all tilt to be. He should have used it in the book. He used Clay-Liston as his example,
Again, Clay-Liston, which appeared in the "Mental Toughness" chapter was used as an example of the lack of mental toughness that can appear in an athletic sport. It had nothing to do with tilt.

Now from the rest of this post of yours:

Quote:
I left out the mini-tilt stuff because by what you say on here in your first response, it seems none of it is tilt by your definition except for the total "brain locked up" thing. So such minor deteriorating play wouldn't apply to tilt discussion by your definition, as I understand it.
I think you need to read the book to get a better understanding of what it says. "Mini-tilt," what ever that is supposed to mean, is not addressed in my book, and who knows what you mean by your last sentence.

MM
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:12 PM   #152
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

It doesn't say or mean that you used the Liston example for tilt, I meant you used that example of a fight, whereas, in my opinion, using the example of the Duran fight would much more eloquently establish the difference between the subjects of tilt, mental toughness, quitting, total mind freak, etc. My point is eloquent in that regard. Of course there isn't time for editing to clarifiy every possible misunderstanding when discussing such related subjects. But I didn't conflate them. Again, I didn't say or mean that you used the Liston example to describe tilt, I merely said you used the Liston example ... meaning, speaking of fights, not tilt, you could have very effectively used the Duran example instead to draw a great line of demarcation regarding the "brain lock"/tilt and other aspects of poor performance.

Neither of us has said that Liston was an example of tilt. Only a misread and presumption, admittedly left a little bit open by the language due to no finish editing on these posts, conflates the two.

Why do I get the feeling you want nothing to do with that Dostoevsky quote? I mean, let's quibble about minor stuff and avoid the big issue.

Are human beings combinations of emotions and reason whereas computers are not?

A lot of the other is just nitpicking on a subject where there is no actual disagreement.

I have about a 4,000 word review of your book which you stubbornly insist I haven't read. I'm going to distill it into about 15 questions or so and see what happens.

I will say this first. If you read a treatise on Jungian or cognitive impulse control and then attempted to integrate it in a thread about poker, when you inevitably screwed that up here and there ... would that mean you hadn't read the book? I don't think so. LIkewise, when I read someone else's framework, yours, I may not integrate it perfectly first time around.

BTW, if I wrote a book called Real Poker Math and in the introduction said I don't know anything about math ... what would your reaction be? I'm going to debunk poker mathematicians by redefining the concepts to my liking, rejecting any other framework, etc. etc. Fibonacci or whoever the hell he is (I wouldn't know) be damned ... I"m the one telling it like it is here. How would you react to such an attitude?

Poker players, like human beings in general, often lack impulse control. It's why they smoke, it's why they eat too much, it's why they do all kinds of things to excess and could be said to lack discipline. Lets' say Mason Malmuth is highly disciplined and controlled when playing poker. With this as a given, all he need to do is learn to play well. Such is not the case for the masses. They need in the moment when they are abandoning their knowledge to indulge their impulses, to learn how to change that dynamic. That dynamic does not rare itself as a specter for very controlled players, by definition. I think this is one of your major blind spots in terms of appreciating what others can benefit from.

That's not an insult. Ask me about my blind spots re math, and they're legion. I couldn't even think of the other guy's name re "gambler's ruin," so I said Fibonacci instead (whose name I saw on a bogus sports cappers advertisement recently).

Hey, did you write the thing on the odd of the UCLA 38-game winning streak years ago, or was that Sklansky?

Gotta go. Can't edit. Nothing is written in stone.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:21 PM   #153
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchronic View Post
It doesn't say or mean that you used the Liston example for tilt, I meant you used that example of a fight, whereas, in my opinion, using the example of the Duran fight would much more eloquently establish the difference between the subjects of tilt, mental toughness, quitting, total mind freak, etc. My point is eloquent in that regard. Of course there isn't time for editing to clarifiy every possible misunderstanding when discussing such related subjects. But I didn't conflate them. Again, I didn't say or mean that you used the Liston example to describe tilt, I merely said you used the Liston example ... meaning, speaking of fights, not tilt, you could have very effectively used the Duran example instead to draw a great line of demarcation regarding the "brain lock"/tilt and other aspects of poor performance.

Neither of us has said that Liston was an example of tilt. Only a misread and presumption, admittedly left a little bit open by the language due to no finish editing on these posts, conflates the two.

Why do I get the feeling you want nothing to do with that Dostoevsky quote? I mean, let's quibble about minor stuff and avoid the big issue.

Are human beings combinations of emotions and reason whereas computers are not?

A lot of the other is just nitpicking on a subject where there is no actual disagreement.

I have about a 4,000 word review of your book which you stubbornly insist I haven't read. I'm going to distill it into about 15 questions or so and see what happens.

I will say this first. If you read a treatise on Jungian or cognitive impulse control and then attempted to integrate it in a thread about poker, when you inevitably screwed that up here and there ... would that mean you hadn't read the book? I don't think so. LIkewise, when I read someone else's framework, yours, I may not integrate it perfectly first time around.

BTW, if I wrote a book called Real Poker Math and in the introduction said I don't know anything about math ... what would your reaction be? I'm going to debunk poker mathematicians by redefining the concepts to my liking, rejecting any other framework, etc. etc. Fibonacci or whoever the hell he is (I wouldn't know) be damned ... I"m the one telling it like it is here. How would you react to such an attitude?

Poker players, like human beings in general, often lack impulse control. It's why they smoke, it's why they eat too much, it's why they do all kinds of things to excess and could be said to lack discipline. Lets' say Mason Malmuth is highly disciplined and controlled when playing poker. With this as a given, all he need to do is learn to play well. Such is not the case for the masses. They need in the moment when they are abandoning their knowledge to indulge their impulses, to learn how to change that dynamic. That dynamic does not rare itself as a specter for very controlled players, by definition. I think this is one of your major blind spots in terms of appreciating what others can benefit from.

That's not an insult. Ask me about my blind spots re math, and they're legion. I couldn't even think of the other guy's name re "gambler's ruin," so I said Fibonacci instead (whose name I saw on a bogus sports cappers advertisement recently).

Hey, did you write the thing on the odd of the UCLA 38-game winning streak years ago, or was that Sklansky?

Gotta go. Can't edit. Nothing is written in stone.
Here are the first three paragraphs from the "Introduction" of Real Poker Psychology (on page 1):

Quote:
Iím a mathematician. The reason I can say this is that my degrees are in math. But Iím also a statistician, and the reason I can say this is that in graduate school my curriculum included a bunch of statistics courses. When I worked in the real world, first for the United States Census Bureau and then for the Northrop Corporation, my job was more of a statistician than mathematician even though ďmathĒ was always in my title. So why am I writing a book on poker psychology?

There are two reasons. First, my perspective is different. I donít look at poker psychology as many psychologists would and believe that my understanding of what causes the issues that poker psychologists try to address is far better. And for those of you familiar with the poker psychology literature, video, seminars, etc., I think youíll agree once you finish this book.

Second, even though there is certainly some good stuff out there, I canít stand much of what I read and hear. Yes, perhaps this is my version of tilt and also my mathematical bias, but as youíll see, my tilt problem is solved.
and this appears on page 6 in the "Variance" chapter:

Quote:
So why is this important and what does this mathematical relationship have to do with poker psychology? Well, it turns out that this idea is the source of all good and evil in the world of poker psychology. In fact, and as weíll see in this book, itís almost impossible to think of anything in this field where the mathematical relationship between the expectation and the standard deviation, (along with a couple of other attributes that weíll get to ó poker can be counterintuitive and you need to play poker well) isnít the explanation.
So that's how I can write a book on poker psychology.

MM
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:19 AM   #154
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

As I still haven't quite learned how to get a quote from another thread to appear in a thread, I am doing a link.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...6&postcount=27
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:09 PM   #155
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alternate Identity View Post
As I still haven't quite learned how to get a quote from another thread to appear in a thread, I am doing a link.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...6&postcount=27
I don't know if there is a way to get another quote in a separate thread so I suggest a link and a copy/paste w/i the quote brackets.

Quote:
Well, I got Poker and More yesterday and I was really hoping the psychology section would have Mason realizing he was wrong in his belief that diet was not important and his belief that proper sleep was not important as well as, most importantly, I was hoping Mason would realize he was wrong in the nature of tilt as expressed in Real Poker Psychology.

No such luck.
I'll add: Re diet. Do you see what players eat at the table? It's not steamed fish and vegetables since I haven't seen that in 20 years. And I quip: 'If I start to think that I'm fat and out of shape all I have to do is go to the poker room and take a look around. That fixes it.'

I agree on the sleep part but I wonder if it really affects tilt. Lack of sleep degrades MY game so I don't play if I'm not well rested.

But: I think Mason's right about the nature of tilt and my take away from his book is that players that tilt just don't accept poker for what it is. Mason will correct me if I'm wrong. His bit about seeing humor is true for me. If I get beat in some ridiculous way I chuckle. The ONLY thing that would bother me about such a thing is if that player stopped playing in the game.

So what gets players tilted? A beat? If it's a beat then they don't accept that beats are a necessary part of the game. W/O them the bad players would be busted. A needle? I'd think a player w/ a lot of live hours would be immune to that by now. Running bad? Everybody runs bad. I'll stop here.

Here's my view: Recs often come pre-tilted. They are there for more other reasons than trying to win. In order for them to overcome it they have to understand the nature of the game, which they don't. Pros and those who need the extra income: I think most of the tilt is bec a couple/few losses will put them on the rail, they know it, and they can't stand it. They are under-rolled and that means that THEY don't understand the nature of the game either. IIRC, there's a section in the book titled ''Dem fluctuations.' It should not be necessary to put such a basic topic in a psych book. Serious players should already know about fluctuations and how long they can last. I'm supposing that he put it there to try to finally bang some sense into these players. They've got tilt issues, they've tried other psych books that haven't helped (big surprise) so they read his and maybe a light bulb will go off here and there.

A last thing: I've got a large poker book library bec I'm willing to spend the money in the hopes of reading a single sentence that lights up that bulb. The price of the book is essentially zero since we a putting who knows how much on the table. If it helps win a single session the reader is ahead of the game.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:15 AM   #156
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
I don't know if there is a way to get another quote in a separate thread so I suggest a link and a copy/paste w/i the quote brackets.



I'll add: Re diet. Do you see what players eat at the table? It's not steamed fish and vegetables since I haven't seen that in 20 years. And I quip: 'If I start to think that I'm fat and out of shape all I have to do is go to the poker room and take a look around. That fixes it.'

I agree on the sleep part but I wonder if it really affects tilt. Lack of sleep degrades MY game so I don't play if I'm not well rested.

But: I think Mason's right about the nature of tilt and my take away from his book is that players that tilt just don't accept poker for what it is. Mason will correct me if I'm wrong. His bit about seeing humor is true for me. If I get beat in some ridiculous way I chuckle. The ONLY thing that would bother me about such a thing is if that player stopped playing in the game.

So what gets players tilted? A beat? If it's a beat then they don't accept that beats are a necessary part of the game. W/O them the bad players would be busted. A needle? I'd think a player w/ a lot of live hours would be immune to that by now. Running bad? Everybody runs bad. I'll stop here.

Here's my view: Recs often come pre-tilted. They are there for more other reasons than trying to win. In order for them to overcome it they have to understand the nature of the game, which they don't. Pros and those who need the extra income: I think most of the tilt is bec a couple/few losses will put them on the rail, they know it, and they can't stand it. They are under-rolled and that means that THEY don't understand the nature of the game either. IIRC, there's a section in the book titled ''Dem fluctuations.' It should not be necessary to put such a basic topic in a psych book. Serious players should already know about fluctuations and how long they can last. I'm supposing that he put it there to try to finally bang some sense into these players. They've got tilt issues, they've tried other psych books that haven't helped (big surprise) so they read his and maybe a light bulb will go off here and there.

A last thing: I've got a large poker book library bec I'm willing to spend the money in the hopes of reading a single sentence that lights up that bulb. The price of the book is essentially zero since we a putting who knows how much on the table. If it helps win a single session the reader is ahead of the game.
Hi Howard:

My ideas on tilt are a little different from how you state them. So let me try to clear the differences up.

What I'm saying is that tilt is a processing problem. That is, when uncomfortable information comes your way, such as several bad beats in a short period of time, and your brain has difficulty processing this, your mind can sort of get hung up like an infinite programming loop and you can lose the ability to think rationally and tilt can set in. I show this through the use of a simple mathematical model based on discontinuous functions.

Where the humor comes in is that when the mind is able to process the uncomfortable information by crossing the point of discontinuity humor gets produced. Here's a joke from the book (for others who read this post) that illustates this idea nicely:

There was a young lady who wanted to have a boyfriend. But she had some requirements. She told her friends that her future man needed to be short but well dressed. So her friends introduced her to a penguin.

The point of discontinuity, which I also call a "logic disconnect," is when the young lady's friends introduce her to a penguin who seems to meet some of her requirements but who is obviously not a suitable boyfriend. And when our brains figure this out, or correctly process this information, we laugh. But it's my contention, and I thinkthe mathematical model clearly shows this, that if you can't process this type of information, then it can lead to tilt.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:59 AM   #157
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

Thanks for the clarification, Mason.
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Old 04-03-2017, 12:04 AM   #158
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

What's the human mind for?
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:52 PM   #159
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

A few minor errors in the book-

From the chapter Real Poker Psychology- A Few Clarifications:

My latest book, Real Poker Psychology, has been out since December, 2005.


The book was published in 2015, as was noted in
_____


In Semi-Bluffing and Big Bet Games there is the following sentence:

Without the river bet, your EV is worse by betting then by checking.

"then" should be "than"

____

I am browsing a Kindle version so can't give the page numbers.

Last edited by tuccotrading; 04-16-2017 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:34 AM   #160
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Re: Book Review Thread: Real Poker Psychology

I looked over the table of contents. I will be purchasing this book. One chapter I will probably read first, "No Limit Hold'em, Is it Too Irritating."
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