*Fires up Flopzilla*

Thanks Matthew. Lots to think about there.

where can i get this book? Is there some discount or something similar?

What do you think the 3bet stat looks like if we're playing the 3bet strategy you designed?

I've really only looked at button vs blind play much in the last few months and moving around a couple hands (calling with some hands I was 3-betting and 3-betting some hands I was calling) won't change the %'s much.

It's still very similar to what was posted in post #62.

The price tends to change but if you just google search the book title you should probably be able to find it reasonably cheap. Amazon has it for kindle now too.

IN the charts the vsSB 3bet BB chart is missing . why? can u create maybe one?

These are the ranges I'm least confident with. I don't have a strong opinion of what range the SB should be opening (or if he even should be opening, as some players much better than myself prefer to limp) so it makes it very hard to have a strong opinion of what a 3-betting range should be facing a SB open.

I play live full ring and often face open limpers or ISO raises in front pre flop. Any advice on how to think about constructing GTO ranges for perhaps open limping and over limping early and mid position with the intent to call raises or play multi way (88-22, low Axs?), ISO vs 1,2,3 etc., and 3B squeezes?

I would think ISO, for instance, should be tighter than simply opening from a given position? Seems like I should just work backwards and figure out how much active players left need to defend, then figure out how often I should ISO given their GTO defense?

Thanks in advance, awesome book and great responses by you on this thread!

Sry, not book related(I do have your book atleast) so delete/ignore this if you don't feel it's appropriate/will take too long to explain. I stumbled across this video when i was searching for more info on call multipliers.
Briefly what was the calculation error you made back in 2011? Have you stopped using call multipliers? as I don't think i saw them mentioned in your book so far.

CardRunners Preview with Matthew Janda 10.29.11: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpHcWrvLNzo

Thanks.

Just finished the book. Hands down the best book I've read on poker! Can't wait to go through it again. Thank you

I'm not sure what the exact calculation error was (or if it's in that video, I'm not at home right now so I can't open the link), though I do remember making a video "patch" that explained the mistake I made. It had something to do with a shortcut I made for when my opponent calls that didn't work as it wasn't accurately taking into account the EV we get when our opponent's both fold.

I would not use the term "call multiplier" anymore and haven't used it in a long while. There are just better ways to explain stuff. A more recent example would be you'll notice in my more recent videos I don't even use the terms "value bet" or "bluff" very often (at least not on the flop) and instead use the terms "strong bets" or "weak bets" since even the terms "value bet" and "bluff" can often be misleading.

I would recommend NOT watching theory videos that are 3+ years old as the book usually explains things more clearly than the older videos do and recent videos are better than older videos. I understand the concepts better now and working with 2+2 really forced me to learn how to express myself more clearly, and it's no secret I got SUPER lucky in getting to talk to some amazing players about theory since then (while Ben is of course the first one that comes to mind as he was amazingly generous with his time, there were others as well).

Super glad you liked it, always great to read comments like this.

I've never played live and questions like this would definitely fall under the "exploitative play" category which isn't exactly my cup of tea. Granted, I'm sure there is some GTO response for playing against really weak players, but once you're dealing with open-limping at live tables I really wouldn't put too much effort in using theory to construct ranges (though it will still be very useful to understand conceptually why certain hands make good raises etc).

Personally, I would just keep in mind what types of hands usually do better in heads up pots (AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, etc) and what hands do better in multiway pots (22-88) and go from there. So, I'd just limp behind with hands like pocket pairs and make a raise big enough with hands like AQ or KQ that I feel will probably get me heads up (or folds pre-flop). That may seem overly simple, but really simple strategies usually work best against weak players. I'd use judgement for whether or not you want to play a hand like 75s or A5s heads up or multiway, as I can see arguments for both ways and it really depends on how much money people are going to put into the pot post-flop with "meh" hands when you make a flush or straight. It also depends on how common you think limp re-raises will be.

I know for online cash games it's really common to raise more aggressively against a weak player who is a limper than you would with no limper (I know I would) and good players will 3-bet this open pretty aggressively. So I disagree that isolating a player should require a stronger range than a normal raise first in range and I think most online cash players would agree with me. When you isolate a player and get 3-bet pre-flop I'd be more willing to call than I usually would since I would assume the 3-bettor is 3-betting more aggressively.

Hope that helps.

Oh right. That is helpful, thank you.

i read the book and its amazing, but i have difficulties to create betting/checking lines when im the pfa. can u name me mabye a little guideline that will help me. how many hands i must cbet ch/r ch/c ect. i have no glue where i start, start i with my cbetting range then creature my ch/c range, ect how many comboS take i in the ch/c range ect ect ec t. sry for bad englih

I honestly don't think I'm going to be able to add anything more helpful in this thread than what is already in the book (I'm also not exactly sure what you're looking for). Not to plug for CardRunners but this is something that is a lot easier to show on a video than in a thread, so maybe do the 7 day free trial at CardRunners and watch what videos you think may help you answer this question.

I've got a question re the formula on page 71. It has the following explanation below it:
4 is the blinds ev when the button folds
-5.5 is the blinds ev when the button folds

Should the -5.5 refer to when the button calls?

I have another question. do u have some advices for 30-50bb play in cg. i think finding a gto solution is easier for 30-50bb as for 100bb.
my questions
1. if i hav 40bb is it better to openraise for example from ep 87 76 65s or A5s A4s
so more suited connector or suitet aces
2. in ur book u hav flattingranges, how affect my little stack(40bb) affect these ranges, i have to call less or? or can i still cc for example cuvsbtn 14%
3. is 3betting QQ , AK vs a early position opener still not good, or does my little stack make QQ , AK a good 3bet vs ep open?
4. if i check/r the flop im often at the turn with the question 1morebet AI or giv up,
so if i play 40bb and ch/r the flop, i need just for the turn my 2:1 value/bluff ration . right?
sry 4 bad english

Question for Matt: Do you have a graph posted anywhere or a list of your profit by stakes? Would really like to check it out.

Sorry for taking a while to get to this, I'll answer it as soon as I have a book in front of me (recently moved and haven't moved my books yet). My guess is you're correct though, but I'll double check in a few days to confirm.

It's fine to 3-bet early opens with AK/QQ in 6-max (and even in FR) and is done very commonly. The play gets much better as people flat more 3-bets OOP, which players are typically doing much more often now than they used to be doing.

The ratio of value bets:bluffs you'll need will change based on stack depth. So if you look at the models in the book and try to apply them with different stack depth you'll likely make pretty bad ranges. As there is less stack depth, you need to be value betting more and bluffing less on every street.

It's hard for me to give much better advice than "In general, I would emphasize high equity hands which stacks gets shallow. I care less about the ability to make the nuts since I can't win a massive pot anyways." Personally I'd rather have A5s than 65s, but it's not like this is something I know for certain and I'm sure others players would disagree.

I posted that in my blog on CR a while ago so you can find that there. I also posted a link to it earlier in this thread but you should be able to find it easily enough with a google search (if you can't just let me know).

Dear Matthew Janda

I bought the book 6months ago and i’ve found it excellent.
I am currently rereading it with deeper questioning.

I’ve got a lot of questions in mind.

On page 41-42 you analyse the maximum 3betting ranges vs opening positions.
I have understood the process thinking and tried by my own with different opening sizing.
So as you explained I consider we must multiply the odds each player doesn’t 3bet the open together. For each open sizing I have taken in account the frequency of defence against the open to prevent the opener to show an automatic profit.

% max of 3betting for each players vs position & sizing
[IMG][/IMG]

1st question :
Do we assume with this calculation that the defense vs an open is equally shared by the players around the table ?

For instance When UTG open 3BB each player can 3bet at maximum 8%. Would be more realistic to consider HJ needs to defend less than CO and co less than OTB and so until the Big blind? Would he’d be likely to build such a function? I assume the total defending frequency against the open would show an average of 8% by player in that case but the HJ 3betting frequency would be more like 5%, OTb like 8% and Big blind 12%?

2nd question

Could we use this calculation method against a 3bet in order to define at which maximum frequency each player can 4bet (assuming than cold 4betting is possible) ?. We would consider the fact that the defence against a 3bettor would be shared by all the players if I understood correctly the concept.
For instance HJ 3bet vs UTG open. So the defence against the HJ 3bet should be around 30% total to prevent him from showing an automatic profit. I used the same logic than previously by multiplying the odds each player doesn’t 4bet the 3bet together to find answers.

I did the following calculation for an open size of 2BB.

Overall Chart of maximum 4betting open sizing 2
Blinds 1,5
% max of 4betting for each players vs position & sizing
[IMG][/IMG]


We find if HJ 3bet 8 BB against a 2BB open of UTG, so each player should 4bet 7% maximum. Does it make sense ?

Thank you for your consideration and your help
I apologize for any language mistakes knowing the fact English is not my native language :-)
I look forward to hearing from you soon,

Datura

Hey Datura,

Glad you liked the book.

When facing an UTG open, it's pretty safe to say the button will defend more than the hijack or cutoff since there are less players to act after the button and he's guaranteed position. It's trickier when referring to the big blind, since he closes the action pre-flop and has already invested some dead money. So you're right not all the positions will defend the same hands and they'll defend hands in different ways (I personally prefer 3-bet significantly more OOP than IP and I rarely cold call in the small blind, for example).

That seems fine, but I don't think this is very accurate or useful to how poker will actually be played. When a player raises first in (especially from UTG), he's saying he has a much stronger than average hand (since most 6-max UTG opens are only around 15% or so). So when UTG gets 3-bet, he not only has a much stronger range than the players left to act (who will simply have a random hand) but he also has more money invested as dead money. Because of this I would expect the vast majority of the defending against a 3-bet to come from the original pre-flop raiser (in this case UTG), and only occasionally for the other positions to cold call or 4-bet cold. In other words, I don't think your math is wrong but I think your assumption that all positions will 4-bet close to the same frequency is incorrect.

Thank you for your kind reply,

I bet I will have more questions soon :-)

Hey Matt. I really enjoyed ur book. One area where I find myself having trouble is when I 3bet OOP, and get min-4bet. For example SB vs CO, 3BB to 10BB, to 21BB with 100BB stacks and I'm getting 3-1 with a hand like QTs or 76s. Is it as simple as finding my equity against my opponents 4betting range or does my being OOP with a weak hand matter? I didn't find much specific advice in the book on this situation and feel like I'm making a mistake when I call and feel like I'm making a mistake when I fold. Thanks.