Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Books and Publications Discussion and reviews of books, videos, and magazines. Sponsored by TwoPlusTwoStore.com.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-24-2013, 06:53 PM   #26
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 763
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

** Above should read "If ranges are asymmetrical (as they will be when one player 4-bets and the other calls), it's very common for the superior range (the 4-betting range) to be able to profitably bet any two cards. So you should not try to defend aggressively enough to prevent the 4-bettor from being able to profitably bet any two cards, but that isn't problematic since he had to pay a lot of money (by 4-betting) to maybe get into a profitable post-flop spot (he'll sometimes face a 5-bet pre-flop and have to fold his weaker holdings without ever get the opportunity to bluff post-flop).**

Note: I've been sucking at proof-reading before I post, going to try to get better at this. I'm used to typos not mattering much in random posts but obviously missing a word or phrasing something incorrectly can result in confusion here, so I'll try to be better about this. Man I wish I could edit after 30 minutes though.....
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 07:05 PM   #27
Klakteuh
banned
 
Klakteuh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,978
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

great thanks that all makes sense.

Quote:
So this isn't a spot where you can prove you must be defending against a 1/2 PSB 33% of the time or else you must be wrong, but just recognize you're assuming ever hand in the opponent's range must be +EV if you don't. Again, this is easiest to see on the river, where if you don't defend 33% of the time against a 1/2 PSB then your opponent will never check-fold a hand with no showdown value.
I guess you meant 67% instead of 33% here yeah ?
Klakteuh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 07:39 PM   #28
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 763
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klakteuh View Post
great thanks that all makes sense.



I guess you meant 67% instead of 33% here yeah ?
ya
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 07:40 PM   #29
pitapita
Lia Marie Johnson
 
pitapita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Staking
Posts: 7,076
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Janda View Post
Man I wish I could edit after 30 minutes though.....
Janda for mod
pitapita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 07:40 PM   #30
Jomamma
stranger
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Wow excellent book! I've read part 2(preflop play) over 4 times because of all the info.

I have a question in part 2, on first in ranges and maximal 3bet ranges (pages 39-44). Why would the worst hand of a theoretically correct first in raising range of UTG (or any position) have a negative EV?

If the total villian 3b is > 30% and they have a cold calling % (say 25%) that would make the weakest part of the hero's first in raise range -EV. ( as proven in the book)

My question is why doesn't this make the hero remove the weak part of his range to stop his -EV play?
Jomamma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 08:01 PM   #31
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomamma View Post
Wow excellent book! I've read part 2(preflop play) over 4 times because of all the info.

I have a question in part 2, on first in ranges and maximal 3bet ranges (pages 39-44). Why would the worst hand of a theoretically correct first in raising range of UTG (or any position) have a negative EV?
It wouldn't have a negative EV against a table of players playing optimally, but it would almost definitely have a negative EV against a table of players playing too loose, as in the example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomamma View Post
If the total villian 3b is > 30% and they have a cold calling % (say 25%) that would make the weakest part of the hero's first in raise range -EV. ( as proven in the book)

My question is why doesn't this make the hero remove the weak part of his range to stop his -EV play?
Because we're not trying to design an exploitative range against sub-optimal opponents. Consider a HUNL game with 100bb stacks against someone who 3-bet jams all-in from the BB 100% of the time. Against this opponent, the vast majority of a GTO open-raising range will be -EV. That doesn't mean it's GTO to remove the weakest part of our open-raising range to stop our -EV play.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 08:37 PM   #32
Jomamma
stranger
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

ok thanks for the reply spladle.

to clarify, if the hero was playing GTO (or playing as described the book) and faces over aggressive opponents, he may loose money with the weaker parts of his range (because he will raise-fold to 3bets and will be behind when called) but raising with the whole opening range is a +EV move on average?

If he was playing against over aggressive opponents, hero would have the option of switching to an exploitative strategy of removing these -EV hands but that is not what Matthew Janda was trying to prove.

Am I understanding this correctly?
Jomamma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 08:41 PM   #33
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomamma View Post
ok thanks for the reply spladle.

to clarify, if the hero was playing GTO (or playing as described the book) and faces over aggressive opponents, he may loose money with the weaker parts of his range (because he will raise-fold to 3bets and will be behind when called) but raising with the whole opening range is a +EV move on average?
Correct. More importantly, against over-aggressive opponents, your strong hands will gain more than your weak hands will lose, and so your overall opening range will be more profitable against over-aggressive opponents than against optimal ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomamma View Post
If he was playing against over aggressive opponents, hero would have the option of switching to an exploitative strategy of removing these -EV hands but that is not what Matthew Janda was trying to prove.

Am I understanding this correctly?
It sounds to me like you are, yes.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 09:01 PM   #34
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 763
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Spladle gave some very good responses, and please feel free to do that guys if someone asks a question where you feel you know the answer. It's also probably better to hear things explained in different ways from different people.
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 10:50 PM   #35
Queen6Suited
banned
 
Queen6Suited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 3,879
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Sorry if this has been asked, but will there be an e-book of this? really want to read it asap.
Queen6Suited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 01:15 AM   #36
PutMyRobeOnRITE
journeyman
 
PutMyRobeOnRITE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 250
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen6Suited View Post
Sorry if this has been asked, but will there be an e-book of this? really want to read it asap.
Yes, there will be an e-book. The 2+2 store will produce an e-book relatively soon. Amazon will probably eventually have a Kindle book, but that will most definitely come out after the 2+2 e-book.
PutMyRobeOnRITE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 03:45 AM   #37
PutMyRobeOnRITE
journeyman
 
PutMyRobeOnRITE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 250
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

I think I found a small typo....page 84, Vs Button 3-Bet SB should be 18.4% instead of 18.1%...I may be wrong, but I was entering it into flopzilla and checked it a couple times....:-)
PutMyRobeOnRITE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 07:53 AM   #38
pitapita
Lia Marie Johnson
 
pitapita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Staking
Posts: 7,076
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PutMyRobeOnRITE View Post
I think I found a small typo....page 84, Vs Button 3-Bet SB should be 18.4% instead of 18.1%...I may be wrong, but I was entering it into flopzilla and checked it a couple times....:-)
I think he calculated the %s and then put ranges that are close to them, also a 0.3% difference won't matter in practice anyways
pitapita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 04:48 PM   #39
PutMyRobeOnRITE
journeyman
 
PutMyRobeOnRITE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 250
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
I think he calculated the %s and then put ranges that are close to them, also a 0.3% difference won't matter in practice anyways
Oh yeah for sure....I just thought maybe they would want to know about it in case they make changes to further printings...if they even do that.
PutMyRobeOnRITE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 11:05 PM   #40
Junior93
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Is this book focused on 6max games or full ring? I play both but I read some comments on another thread that have me a bit confused. Really want to know what it covers before I decide to add it to my poker library.
Junior93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 11:59 PM   #41
JPE23
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: London
Posts: 1,519
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

It covers poker.
JPE23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 01:09 AM   #42
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 763
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior93 View Post
Is this book focused on 6max games or full ring? I play both but I read some comments on another thread that have me a bit confused. Really want to know what it covers before I decide to add it to my poker library.
Since early positions in full ring tend to use very tight ranges, there are no hand examples from full ring since wider ranges tend to illustrate concepts better. The hand chart in the book is from 6-max as well. Just about all the concepts in the book will apply immediately to full ring even if the book focuses on 6-max play.
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 03:21 AM   #43
PutMyRobeOnRITE
journeyman
 
PutMyRobeOnRITE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 250
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior93 View Post
Is this book focused on 6max games or full ring? I play both but I read some comments on another thread that have me a bit confused. Really want to know what it covers before I decide to add it to my poker library.
The book will help you even if you are a full ring player, even though there aren't ranges spelled out for you for the earlier positions it will still help you with the other positions in full ring. You can also extrapolate the 6-max ranges to the full ring positions. Also the pre-flop theory will help you in full ring too....and the post flop is golden...this book is a no-brainer to buy.
PutMyRobeOnRITE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 03:26 AM   #44
Aquilaman
journeyman
 
Aquilaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 239
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

@ Matthew Janda
so you say its applicable to fullring. I guess then it is useful for HU as well?
Cheers,
Aquila
Aquilaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 10:26 AM   #45
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 763
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquilaman View Post
@ Matthew Janda
so you say its applicable to fullring. I guess then it is useful for HU as well?
Cheers,
Aquila
Yes, but it will require you to be more comfortable applying concepts to wider ranges. For my hand examples I didn't use any button vs big blind situations for that very reason (gets messy pretty quickly), but I have done several button vs bb examples on my own and with students to improve our blind vs button play. Even if you don't want to put in that much work, a lot of the concepts about bet sizing, frequencies, etc will apply to HU.
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 11:22 AM   #46
Lego05
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 23,613
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

I'm having a difficult time understanding the first paragraph on page 46.

So we know that they will 4bet/call with 15.2% of their opening range. Therefore, you say we need to "defend" with at least 15.2% of their opening range. What do you mean by "defend", 5bet, 3bet, 3bet/5bet?

Also, I think I am missing the logic of why defending range should match our opponent's 4bet/call range.


Thanks.
Lego05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 12:03 PM   #47
BackDownSouth
banned
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: FLA
Posts: 110
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Just got my book yesterday, looking forward to reading it. Also looking forward to this discussion thread both will compliment each other nicely
BackDownSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 01:18 PM   #48
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 763
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
I'm having a difficult time understanding the first paragraph on page 46.


So we know that they will 4bet/call with 15.2% of their opening range. Therefore, you say we need to "defend" with at least 15.2% of their opening range. What do you mean by "defend", 5bet, 3bet, 3bet/5bet?
Using the assumptions in the section, if we won't flat 3-bets we need to 4-bet 27.5% of our opening range when facing a 3-bet. Once we've 4-bet, we need to call a 5-bet with 55% of our 4-betting range. Since (0.275)(0.55) = 15.2%, if we never flat 3-bets we must be willing to 4-bet then call the 5-bet with 15.2% of our opening range.

This is just useful for giving you an idea of how aggressively you'll need to stack off in situations where you open MP or the CO and get 3-bet by the button. This of course isn't optimal, as an optimal player will very frequently call 3-bets OOP. But it is useful for giving you an idea of how strong of range you can felt if you choose to play a 4-bet or fold game when facing a 3-bet, as you can see on page 46 you're only felting AQs+/AK/TT even if you open 25% (like many players do in the CO).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
Also, I think I am missing the logic of why defending range should match our opponent's 4bet/call range.


Thanks.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, as the original raiser is the 4-bettor and calls the 5-bet. If you clarify what you mean I'll be glad to help.

Last edited by Matthew Janda; 05-26-2013 at 01:32 PM.
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 06:03 PM   #49
tuccotrading
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,055
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

At the bottom of page 128:

"And if we do just call, a raise on the turn would be ineffective on
any ace, King, queen, nine, eight, or heart and probably should be made."

..........

Should his read:

"And if we do just call, a raise on the turn would be ineffective on
any ace, King, queen, nine, eight, or heart and probably should not be made." (?)

Last edited by tuccotrading; 05-26-2013 at 06:17 PM.
tuccotrading is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 06:50 PM   #50
Matthew Janda
 
Matthew Janda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 763
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuccotrading View Post
At the bottom of page 128:

"And if we do just call, a raise on the turn would be ineffective on
any ace, King, queen, nine, eight, or heart and probably should be made."

..........

Should his read:

"And if we do just call, a raise on the turn would be ineffective on
any ace, King, queen, nine, eight, or heart and probably should not be made." (?)
Yup, looks like a type-o, thanks for pointing that out. Hopefully it didn't cause too much confusion and is still clear from the rest of the passage.
Matthew Janda is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online