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Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

06-22-2013 , 11:35 AM
is it available in ebook format? if yes where?
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-22-2013 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oigres02
is it available in ebook format? if yes where?
http://www.professionalpoker.com/Cat...-Limit-Hold-em
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-22-2013 , 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker
Is there a list of errors somewhere? I'd like to go through the book and correct them before reading.
Just wanted to point out that within a week I'll update all the new corrections (though there aren't very many and most are quite small). People have done a great job of posting them here and PMing them to me, I just want to wait until we get a few more before I update the OP.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-22-2013 , 12:49 PM
This question might be a little trivial or straightforward, and I know the chart is only to be used as a reference, but I got a little confused on Facing a 3-bet in position. UTG vs IP 3-bet and UTG vs OOP 3-bet on page 85. Is IP only MP, CO, BUTTON or does it mean after the flop, which is the SB or BB only. If you could clarify that would be great!
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-22-2013 , 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3betHooah
This question might be a little trivial or straightforward, and I know the chart is only to be used as a reference, but I got a little confused on Facing a 3-bet in position. UTG vs IP 3-bet and UTG vs OOP 3-bet on page 85. Is IP only MP, CO, BUTTON or does it mean after the flop, which is the SB or BB only. If you could clarify that would be great!
"UTG vs IP 3-bet" would mean the 3-bet comes from the player who is in position (so MP, CO, or button).
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-22-2013 , 03:04 PM
UTG vs IP 3-Bet Flatting range KK-TT,AQs+,KQs,AQo+ is this when hero is UTG or MP,CO, or Button

UTG vs OOP 3-Bet would be the blinds, but is hero the blinds when using these ranges or UTG?

Vs means hero is in position
UTG vs IP 3-Bet means hero is UTG?
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-22-2013 , 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3betHooah
UTG vs IP 3-Bet Flatting range KK-TT,AQs+,KQs,AQo+ is this when hero is UTG or MP,CO, or Button

UTG vs OOP 3-Bet would be the blinds, but is hero the blinds when using these ranges or UTG?

Vs means hero is in position
UTG vs IP 3-Bet means hero is UTG?
If I am UTG and someone 3-bets me who is in position, I will often flat KK-TT/AQs/KQs/AQo/AK.

Please read my other posts regarding using less polarized ranges and how pre-flop probably uses mixed strategies non-stop. Also, there's a difference between opening UTG and whether you get 3-bet by MP or the button, but here only one range is given (since the ranges would be very similar anyways).
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-23-2013 , 05:05 PM
When defending in position Matt concludes that your opponent shouldn't be able to profitably bet any two cards when out of position, on most boards. I disagree with this conclusion and most of his explanations.

The first reason he gives is that "our in position calling range is designed to play effectively against our opponent’s preflop raising range."(pg 99) I don't see how this point requires that we not let our opponent bet any two cards profitably. Our out of position blind range is designed to play effectively against our opponents preflop raising range, but the same argument doesn't apply. In fact, all ranges are always designed to play perfectively effectively from a GTO standpoint. But Matt doesn't explain why letting our opponent bet any two cards profitably is allowing him to exploit us.

Matt later implies that if our opponent can make a profitable bet with any two cards than he'll always bet and never check -- which is certainly wrong. But just because your out of position opponent can bet any two cards profitably doesn't mean that betting is higher EV than checking. In fact, Matt makes this exact point when analyzing the in position player. So we can't fold too much that it's higher EV for our opponent to bet all his hands, and even technically bet any hands which should in theory be higher EV as a check.

Quote:
While even a hand as weak as deuces has a positive expected value when it’s checked out of position on a flop of the Jh 9h 5c the expected value of the check should be small and close to zero. If we could profitably bet deuces out of position on this board texture, then even a bet which is only slightly profitable would bebetter than checking. However, most players learn from trial and error that betting a weak hand when out of position has a negative expected value on most board textures even if it cannot be proven directly.
(pg 192)
I don't understand this argument. He says two contradictory things... checking is slightly +EV, betting is slightly +EV therefor betting is higher EV than checking. As long as the in position player has a checking range, than 22 is going to be +EV as a check. And so as long as it's LESS EV as a bet, than there will be no incentive for the oop player to be betting his entire range, including 22 in this situation. He goes on to argue that most people learn that betting 22 is -EV in this situation which makes no sense either because people aren't playing anywhere close to GTO correct, so what they learn in this situation has little bearing on the question. We know that if it's higher EV for our opponent to bet his entire range than we're doing something wrong, but it doesn't tell us exactly how wide we're supposed to defend.

Staying with the previous example, our goal is not to make the oop player's worse hand indifferent between betting and checking. Instead there will be some "stronger" hand that will be indifferent between betting and checking OR a hand very close to the weakest bluff. In other words, it might make sense for the worse hand in our opponents range to be -EV as a bet even if checking is +EV -- as long as he's indifferent between betting and checking with the right hands. Matt describes this equilibrium that forms, "So the conclusion is that defending anywhere between 60 to70 percent of the time on most boards seems like a reasonable guess. This should stop our opponent from profitably betting anytwo cards on the flop. It also allows for enough folding that wegive our opponent an incentive to bluff the hands which are theoretically correct bluffs, yet does not result in us folding so much that he can recklessly bluff any two cards. Likewise we are not defending so aggressively that we give too much value to our opponent’s strong hands." The more we defend the thinner our opponent can value bet, and the higher equity his bluffs will have. So we want to, in general, defend as little as possible without folding hands which would be +EV as a call.

It's hard to know which bluffing hand of our opponents that we are supposed to make indifferent between betting and checking -- or if not indifferent at least know where which hands should go. But let's look at the math a little more and Matt's explanation when to defend more. When our opponent makes a 75% pot size bet, he needs us to fold ~57% of the time to make an immediate profit, and Matt suggests we should be "defending anywhere between 60 to70 percent of the time on most boards seems like a reasonable guess." (pg 103) We are defending with up to 22% more hands than what the Villain needs to make an immediate profit -- this is ALOT more hands. Another way of thinking about it is that if we defend say 68% on the flop, 60% on the turn, and 57% on the river when our opponent makes 3/4 pot size bets, than if he had a hand with 0% equity, it would be ~ -2bb EV bet. Now of course our opponent will have some equity when he's bluffing, but this is quite a bit of EV to make up. "Usually, the board textures where our opponent’s bluffs can likely outdraw us on the turn (such as the Th 8h 7c flop mentioned earlier) are the same ones where being in position is quite valuable. In addition, on these type of flops, we should have many hands which can improve on the turn. Therefore, good strategy implies to defend a wider range on these types of board textures. " Yet at the same time, these are the same boards that our opponents bluffs have equity when they check. In other words, if we defend so much, I'm fairly confident that his weaker hands will be -EV as a bet, but they'll be slightly +EV as a bet, so I don't know why he suggests we should defend so much.

Matt does say in the book that it can make sense to defend more on an early street and less on a latter, but on most drawy boards I don't think he's going to think that on average we should be defending less than 57% of the time on the turn.

My guess is that Matt's defending much wider than GTO correct in quite a few places, and that its important to remember that an opponent will only bet if it's higher EV than checking, not if it's simply profitable.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-23-2013 , 05:10 PM
Kinda similar to the point above Matt implies in the book that the blinds can fold more postflop because they're getting a discount on a call preflop. I don't like this explanation because it implies that action on earlier streets has some effect on the GTO solution of later streets. When we're looking at the flop decision, we can ignore all action on earlier streets -- as long as the ranges are correct on the flop. So a better explanation would be something along the lines of the blinds can fold more post flop because they're ranges are weaker post flop because they were able to call wider preflop getting a discount from the blinds. The important part is that they're ranges are weaker from the discount in the blinds. In addition, as in all oop situations, your opponents checking back range is going to be +EV, so you're not trying to make your opponent indifferent between betting or folding, but indifferent between betting and checking.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-23-2013 , 08:22 PM
Hi Matthew, thanks for writing one of the best recent poker books.

I have 2 questions at the moment:

1) I read you already posted the suggested opening ranges were just your best guesses at the time and basically are a working tool. But what I immediately noticed was that although they are pretty tight %-wise, there's more suited connectors/gappers in there than I'm used to. Same for cold calling ranges and hands you defend to a 3bet. I think many players go for the higher cards which flop more equity (but aren't necessarily more playable/better bluffs).

Is there a specific reason for this? Do you think many players' opening/cold calling/defending to 3bet ranges don't have enough of these low suited connectors? I mostly thought (or was taught) these hands don't flop enough equity enough of the time to warrant being played so loosely.

2) Your cbetting strategy (for value) could be simplified as: cbet flop for value with hands you want to 3 barrel or with vulnerable hands that can fold villain's high equity hands (overcards to your pair) with a bet. Check with 2 barrel hands that don't really mind giving a free card.

Now, seems to me that there are boards on which there's value to be had on the flop (when villain calls with a middling pair), but sometimes not anymore on a turn which brings an overcard to villain's middle pair.

Has this ever been a consideration, or is it completely outweighed by the need to make your flop checking range stronger?

I have mostly been barreling flop and turn when going for 2 streets in the past, when my hands and villain's could still improve. In position, this is not often a problem, but OOP, villain still gets to play a river and make our life difficult.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-23-2013 , 09:18 PM
@Matthew Janda

In the introduction of your book you write:

Quote:
This book is designed to develop and explain the math and theory behind no-limit Texas hold ’em with extra emphasis placed on how the game should be played against “perfect,” or theoretically optimal, opponents.
I started to play poker a few months ago and i still play at the microstakes. I want to improve my game so i bought your book. Do you think i can beat the Micros playing GTO? I mean yeah i can exploit my oponents so often...but would i make profit by only playing GTO against all this bad players without exploiting them?

Could you give some advice for me as a microstakes player?

Greetz from Germany,

macius
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-25-2013 , 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyPromises
Lots of text
I don't really have a problem with much (if anything) that you said, I just think the way we chose to explain some material in the book is a better way to explain it to a new player than the way you prefer. Sometimes we say something in a way that might not be as technically correct as possible if we think it will help with newer players understanding the concept. Obviously you know more about GTO poker than the average player reading this book, and if everyone was at your skill level we'd probably have presented information a bit differently.

Also, FWIW, the few good players I've talked to (as well as myself) think if anything the ranges in my book are overall probably at least a bit too tight. There may be some spots where I'm encouraging too aggressive of raising or betting ranges, but for the most part I think the defending ranges are a bit conservative and if I had to guess a GTO player calls a bit more aggressively. There's of course no way of knowing and you may be right that the ranges are too wide, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-25-2013 , 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyPromises
Kinda similar to the point above Matt implies in the book that the blinds can fold more postflop because they're getting a discount on a call preflop. I don't like this explanation because it implies that action on earlier streets has some effect on the GTO solution of later streets. When we're looking at the flop decision, we can ignore all action on earlier streets -- as long as the ranges are correct on the flop. So a better explanation would be something along the lines of the blinds can fold more post flop because they're ranges are weaker post flop because they were able to call wider preflop getting a discount from the blinds. The important part is that they're ranges are weaker from the discount in the blinds. In addition, as in all oop situations, your opponents checking back range is going to be +EV, so you're not trying to make your opponent indifferent between betting or folding, but indifferent between betting and checking.
This is a good example of where you're again correct but I thought the way the book presents the information makes it a bit easier for newer players to understand. Part 1 explains how GTO poker does not care about previous action, and hopefully it's pretty clear that the reason why a button IP flop CB is likely so profitable is because the BB range is so weak since it got a big discount on the pre-flop call.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-25-2013 , 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynameiskarl
Hi Matthew, thanks for writing one of the best recent poker books.

I have 2 questions at the moment:

1) I read you already posted the suggested opening ranges were just your best guesses at the time and basically are a working tool. But what I immediately noticed was that although they are pretty tight %-wise, there's more suited connectors/gappers in there than I'm used to. Same for cold calling ranges and hands you defend to a 3bet. I think many players go for the higher cards which flop more equity (but aren't necessarily more playable/better bluffs).

Is there a specific reason for this? Do you think many players' opening/cold calling/defending to 3bet ranges don't have enough of these low suited connectors? I mostly thought (or was taught) these hands don't flop enough equity enough of the time to warrant being played so loosely.

2) Your cbetting strategy (for value) could be simplified as: cbet flop for value with hands you want to 3 barrel or with vulnerable hands that can fold villain's high equity hands (overcards to your pair) with a bet. Check with 2 barrel hands that don't really mind giving a free card.

Now, seems to me that there are boards on which there's value to be had on the flop (when villain calls with a middling pair), but sometimes not anymore on a turn which brings an overcard to villain's middle pair.

Has this ever been a consideration, or is it completely outweighed by the need to make your flop checking range stronger?

I have mostly been barreling flop and turn when going for 2 streets in the past, when my hands and villain's could still improve. In position, this is not often a problem, but OOP, villain still gets to play a river and make our life difficult.
For question #1, I'd now put a bit more emphasis on high equity hands than hands with more potential to make nut-type hands. There's no general rule though, and sometimes K9s will be better than 98s and sometimes it will be the other way around. It's very hard to tell how loosely a player should call in position, and my ranges may very well be too loose, especially if the blinds are squeezing more aggressively than suggested in my hand chart (and they very well maybe should). At the end of the day just do what you think is most +EV and make sure everything comes together and seems reasonable.

Question #2, that's very much been considered and is discussed in the book. There's no way to know if KK is a more profitable continuation bet or check on an A72r flop in a button vs BB situation, but I'd rather check KK and bet 88 for the reasons described in the book (one for the most part wants to make QT type hands fold, and one doesn't).
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-25-2013 , 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by macius
@Matthew Janda

In the introduction of your book you write:



I started to play poker a few months ago and i still play at the microstakes. I want to improve my game so i bought your book. Do you think i can beat the Micros playing GTO? I mean yeah i can exploit my oponents so often...but would i make profit by only playing GTO against all this bad players without exploiting them?

Could you give some advice for me as a microstakes player?

Greetz from Germany,

macius
GTO will crush any limit. No one is capable of playing GTO, and it's most certainly not reasonable for a microstakes player to try to implement some of the more difficult concepts. What's most important at microstakes is to grasp concepts like as follows....

A greater fraction of your bets should be "bluffs" on the flop than on the river.

Equity does not imply expected value.

You can bluff more if you bet big than if you bet small.

Value bets need to be very strong hands when you're betting big, but don't need to be nearly as strong when you're betting small.

Etc etc. Just grasp the general concepts and try to apply them reasonably well and you should do very well at microstakes, then you can slowly add more complex concepts and work on precision as you move up.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-25-2013 , 02:38 PM
Hi Matthew. I love your book.
The preflop range that we mentioned to Nick Howard it seems perfect to play with 100bb effective, but ... What if the effective stacks are 50bb?
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-25-2013 , 05:44 PM
This may be insignificant but with the chart on p380 I understand where all the values come from except for T&R betting frequency with a SPR of 2, where the bet size is .35pot. The chart shows 84.4% and I get 79%.
1.35/(.35+1.35)=0.794

79% reduces the percent of flop bets for value from 60.1% to almost 50%.

Did I make a mistake?
Thanks
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-25-2013 , 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fra_an_11
Hi Matthew. I love your book.
The preflop range that we mentioned to Nick Howard it seems perfect to play with 100bb effective, but ... What if the effective stacks are 50bb?
It's NOT!! perfect with 100BB stack play, and I've already posted updated ranges in this thread (which also aren't perfect). Don't overestimate the power of poker theory.

If stack sizes are 50BB I'd just emphasize more high equity hands (like KJo) and put less emphasis on hands with robust equity (like suited connectors).
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-25-2013 , 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram90
This may be insignificant but with the chart on p380 I understand where all the values come from except for T&R betting frequency with a SPR of 2, where the bet size is .35pot. The chart shows 84.4% and I get 79%.
1.35/(.35+1.35)=0.794

79% reduces the percent of flop bets for value from 60.1% to almost 50%.

Did I make a mistake?
Thanks
your calculation looks correct.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-26-2013 , 11:44 AM
Can someone help me out with the tables on page 73 - preflop play, defending against 3bets.

Why does our percentage of opening range called grow so much depending on whether we open 30 or 60% of all hands on the button - from 22 to 35% of our opening range, respectively?

I assume we include more and more 4betbluffs, whereas our value range stays the same (deducing that from the calling range, which leaves nothing to add to our 4bets for value in the primer).
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-26-2013 , 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle7
Can someone help me out with the tables on page 73 - preflop play, defending against 3bets.

Why does our percentage of opening range called grow so much depending on whether we open 30 or 60% of all hands on the button - from 22 to 35% of our opening range, respectively?

I assume we include more and more 4betbluffs, whereas our value range stays the same (deducing that from the calling range, which leaves nothing to add to our 4bets for value in the primer).
The chart assumes that you're defending by 4-betting 5% RANGE of hands in every scenario (probably did this for simplicity as you're 4-bet range would change based upon the BB 3-betting range). So our 4-bet value and bluffing range / ratio stays exactly the same in all situations.

Because of this when our opening range is smaller say 30% than a larger percentage of our opening which will be 4-bet (17%) compared to when we open 60% the percentage of our open which will be 4-bet is (8%). Therefore, the more we defend by 4-betting the less we need to defend by calling.

This same idea comes into play later in the book when defending against a flop bet, the more you defend by raising the less you need to defend by calling -- and vice versa.

fwiw, it's best if you use the model yourself and look at how different assumptions effect your calling range. the chart assumes that the 4-bet range never changes, the chart assumes that the EV of the BBs weakest bluff never changes, the chart assumes that your opponent is always opening to 2.5bb and the BB is always 3-betting to 9.5. I'd recreate the model and play with these assumptions.

Last edited by EmptyPromises; 06-26-2013 at 01:42 PM.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-26-2013 , 01:53 PM
I figured that might be the reason. I'm asking cause in HU matches you get the preflop wars all the time.
Following that table further, we'd end up with something like 38% calls if we open ATC and get 3bet.

Also, it is kind of odd working out the calling ranges with no 3betting ranges in there.. How would we account for that, other than "do call a little bit less if he 3bets 5%"?


Thank you for the explanation btw.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-26-2013 , 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle7
I figured that might be the reason. I'm asking cause in HU matches you get the preflop wars all the time.
Following that table further, we'd end up with something like 36% calls if we open ATC and get 3bet.
fyp


Quote:
Also, it is kind of odd working out the calling ranges with no 3betting ranges in there.. How would we account for that, other than "do call a little bit less if he 3bets 5%"?
the equation takes into the EV of the 3-betters weakest bluff which is all that really matters because we know that the 3-betters weakest bluff must be 0 EV or very very close to 0 EV. If it was -EV, he'd never bluff with it, if it was very +EV than he'd have other weaker bluffs.


Quote:
Thank you for the explanation btw.
sure
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-26-2013 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyPromises
fyp
How'd you come up with precisely 36?

Quote:
the equation takes into the EV of the 3-betters weakest bluff which is all that really matters because we know that the 3-betters weakest bluff must be 0 EV or very very close to 0 EV. If it was -EV, he'd never bluff with it, if it was very +EV than he'd have other weaker bluffs.
What makes us believe the EV of his weakest bluffs will be close to 0 against that particular (or any particular) range?

How did we check for that or come to that conclusion / assumption?
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote
06-26-2013 , 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle7
How'd you come up with precisely 36?
I recreated the model in excel, so I could manipulate the variables.

Quote:
What makes us believe the EV of his weakest bluffs will be close to 0 against that particular (or any particular) range?
We're looking at this against a GTO range which means that it should be close to 0, and I showed the reasoning in the last post.

Quote:
How did we check for that or come to that conclusion / assumption?
If it's not then we're not going to be at an equilibrium which means our ranges won't be GTO.

And the way you guesstimate how much on average a player gets back when they're 3-bet is called is an assumption, but I base mine on in depth CREV simulations. Matt gives results for two different assumptions, so my guess is that he assumes it's somewhere in between them.
Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Quote

      
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