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Old 05-12-2008, 04:09 AM   #1
WCGRider
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Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

As you move up through limits, everything becomes much more difficult. There are less tables, and more regs. In fact, a lot of times now there are less regs but they just play all of the tables. There become far fewer fish, and you have to start beating regs. You have to start floating peoples cbets, c/r bluffing flops, and 3 betting a balanced range preflop.

But luckily you guys dont have to worry about ANY of that!

You see the great things about uNL is, almost anyone can play it. That means, that there are a TON of games to choose from! If there is some decent reg giving you a tough time on your left, Just find a new table! Every table has tons of fish, its your job to find the best tables possible to maximize your winrate.

Things to note.

~Megafish are great, but if you could get a table with 4 40/8ish, i would rather have that over 1 68/4. The bottom line is, you want a lot of people to decide to play hands when you get aces.

~Sit to the LEFT of the fish if possible. The reason this is good is obvious. Poker is a game of incomplete information. If you sit to someones left, for almost every hand, you get to act AFTER them. So you get to see their plan before they see yours. This is critical to good postflop play.

~Don't play more or less tables then you are comfortable with for the sake of you heard playing a good amount of tables was good. If your bread and butter is 2 tabling, unless you really want to add in more tables, its fine to stick with that! If your comfort zone is 10, don't move to 2 because someone says you cant play that many well. Be honest with yourself, and find your spots.

~ Game selection software. There is a lot of this stuff out there and it can be very useful. But at uNL most games are probably fairly good, just try to use common sense and you should be fine without using these thigns.

~ % of players to the flop vs Average Pot

This is a time tested argument, over which is the best indication of a sweet table. I think its % of players, because that means there is probably a lot more limping going on. Average pot is easily skewed through cooler situations that bump up the numbers. However very rarely will a bunch of GOOD players all get hands worth a LIMP. Think about it.

~Keep on good waiting lists even while you play. If there is a table with 2 people wait listing it but it is a MEGA good table, hop on that list! If you get there and they are gone then you dont have to take the seat! Just keep your eye open for good opportunity.

With good game selection, being at the right level, and playing aggressively, you already have the fundamental tools to success! (There will be more of these to come however)
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:50 AM   #2
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

Yet another gem thank you! I have my tables on stars sorted by players/% saw flop/pot size just like you suggested and find that it makes getting tables easy because the first 4 or 5 in the list are always juicy.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:53 AM   #3
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

i always play at 1 table, i want to focus on all that is happening.. Is this also fine or am i playing at to few tables?

Second thing.
I always feel like, it doesn't matter on what table i'm on cause constantly the people change (leaving seat, other player in it..) and i only go to another table when the table is getting dead..

Is this wrong?
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:28 AM   #4
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

WCG for mod imo, epic posts
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:56 AM   #5
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

i play .25/.5 on stars and i actually use the opposite strategy. i play 6 max only and use a very LAGGY style, raising many hands from all positions, barring UTG now. ive found this strategy hugely profitable.

obviously for table selection purposes this means i have to look for different stats. i look for a lowpot average, so that i can win lots of small pots (small- ball if im comparing myself to daniel negreanu, lol).

just my 2 cents as i dont think that this 'conventional' method of selecting purely loose tables is the only way to go, although it is much easier for a lot of the players new to the game.

any1 else play this style and use this table selecetion method?
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:38 AM   #6
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curlee1987 View Post
any1 else play this style and use this table selecetion method?
No, but it makes sense. Play a different style than the table you're on. TAGs search out loose tables and LAGs search out tight tables.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:54 AM   #7
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

One thing that is pretty important to note for micro-stakes is that a lot of people are willing to dump their whole stack with TPTK or overpair type of hands. In my relative short experience, these people are more rewarding to chase than any particular set of PT stats because these are the type of players you can win whole stacks from.

I keep a nice buddy list full of these guys and will sometimes go out of my way to play at their table.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:34 AM   #8
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDataKid View Post
i always play at 1 table, i want to focus on all that is happening.. Is this also fine or am i playing at to few tables?

Second thing.
I always feel like, it doesn't matter on what table i'm on cause constantly the people change (leaving seat, other player in it..) and i only go to another table when the table is getting dead..

Is this wrong?
When you're table selecting you have a reason for being at the table (a fish), when that reason (fish) is gone, you leave. Unless there's a new reason (fish) to stay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curlee1987 View Post
i play .25/.5 on stars and i actually use the opposite strategy. i play 6 max only and use a very LAGGY style, raising many hands from all positions, barring UTG now. ive found this strategy hugely profitable.

obviously for table selection purposes this means i have to look for different stats. i look for a lowpot average, so that i can win lots of small pots (small- ball if im comparing myself to daniel negreanu, lol).

just my 2 cents as i dont think that this 'conventional' method of selecting purely loose tables is the only way to go, although it is much easier for a lot of the players new to the game.

any1 else play this style and use this table selecetion method?
I play laggy and I look for the loosest players. I get to play lots of pots in position, with initiative and usually with the best hand (although not always).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky View Post
No, but it makes sense. Play a different style than the table you're on. TAGs search out loose tables and LAGs search out tight tables.
This is wrong. Before you ask, yes, I'm saying whatever book you got that off has it wrong.

Against loose passive players we want to play loose aggressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncaron View Post
One thing that is pretty important to note for micro-stakes is that a lot of people are willing to dump their whole stack with TPTK or overpair type of hands. In my relative short experience, these people are more rewarding to chase than any particular set of PT stats because these are the type of players you can win whole stacks from.

I keep a nice buddy list full of these guys and will sometimes go out of my way to play at their table.
On average the fishiest players have the loosest preflop stats. Yes, there are bad tags who can be exploited but they
1) usually won't be as bad as the fish and
2) won't be playing as many hands as the fish so you'll have less opportunities to exploit them.

Table selection is a numbers game.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:54 AM   #9
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDataKid View Post
i always play at 1 table, i want to focus on all that is happening.. Is this also fine or am i playing at to few tables?

Second thing.
I always feel like, it doesn't matter on what table i'm on cause constantly the people change (leaving seat, other player in it..) and i only go to another table when the table is getting dead..

Is this wrong?

If playing with just one table is how you are most comfortable playing, then carry on. There is no right or wrong amount of tables. The idea of adding more tables is that you can increase your winrate per hour. Eventually, however, you will reach a number of tables where your play begins to suffer as you are no longer able to concentrate fully on the action. Some people will reach this limit when they add their second table, some won't reach their limit until 24+ tables.

You have to try and work out a decent compromise between your winrate / hour, your winrate / 100 hands and what you enjoy the most. If in the future, you want to start adding tables, try adding them one at a time, making sure you minimise any other distractions such as music, tv etc. If it gets too much and your play is suffering, drop back down to one table and try again another time.

And on table selection, you will probably be quite surprised how much of a difference it makes.When I first got some table selection software, it made a big difference to my winrate. To keep the advantage throughout the session though, you will have to leave tables once they are no longer so juicy and move to new tables.

I wouldn't bother with table selection software until at least .25/.5 or it probably won't make you enough money to make it really worth it, you are better off just concentrating on improving other areas of your game. You will also need to datamine a lot of hands to make it really effective.

Below .25/.5, you will probably still see an improvement in your winrate by searching for the tables that will fit your style best (ie high % players/flop if you are playing a TAG game.) If it seems that the fish have left your table and been replaced by better players, consider leaving and searching for a new table. With so many poor players at the micro limits, there is no point carrying on against the better players.
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Old 05-12-2008, 02:49 PM   #10
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

Where's part 1? I can't find it can someone please post a link?
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:00 PM   #11
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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Where's part 1? I can't find it can someone please post a link?
The search function is your friend
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:03 PM   #12
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

WGC, I would like to add something I use in addition to % players to flop, and I think it's equally as important.

Stack sizes of the players: This one might be less obvious, but do you remember the times you got aces, only to make 25BB or less because you had to play with a stupid short stacker? If our goal is to maximize our profits, and maximize them especially when we have a big hand vs a second best hand, it makes sense that you want that to sit with people who hold stacks that are close to, if not more than our own (it follows that you should be buying in full every time). What I look for is how many short stacks are at a table, how many mid stacks, and how many full+ stacks there are. For example, at 25NL I won't play at a table if more than 3 players have less than $10. I also won't play if only 3 have ~$25+. Those are my absolute maximum and minimums. IMO, you would do well to follow similar guidelines.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:13 PM   #13
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGRider View Post
~Keep on good waiting lists even while you play. If there is a table with 2 people wait listing it but it is a MEGA good table, hop on that list! If you get there and they are gone then you dont have to take the seat! Just keep your eye open for good opportunity.
I would actually disagree, fish loves empty seats, TAGs scout good tables. If there are a ton of people in line -- the people going broke are the fish and the people filling up is TAGs/LAGs. They may still suck, but they are probably at least trying to not suck.

Start a new table or hop straight into a good one > getting in line (unless there is a mainiac handing out heaps of cash) (IMO).

Last edited by Xylocain; 05-12-2008 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:23 PM   #14
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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Originally Posted by Xylocain View Post
I would actually disdagree, fish loves empty seats, TAGs scout good tables. If there are a ton of people in line -- the people going broke are the fish and the people filling up is TAGs/LAGs. They may still suck, but they are probably at least trying to not suck.

Start a new table or hop straight into a good one > getting in line (unless there is a mainiac handing out heaps of cash) (IMO).
naw this is wrong and if the table sucks you dont have to play it.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:58 PM   #15
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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Originally Posted by I vi ii V7 View Post
WGC, I would like to add something I use in addition to % players to flop, and I think it's equally as important.

Stack sizes of the players: This one might be less obvious, but do you remember the times you got aces, only to make 25BB or less because you had to play with a stupid short stacker? If our goal is to maximize our profits, and maximize them especially when we have a big hand vs a second best hand, it makes sense that you want that to sit with people who hold stacks that are close to, if not more than our own (it follows that you should be buying in full every time). What I look for is how many short stacks are at a table, how many mid stacks, and how many full+ stacks there are. For example, at 25NL I won't play at a table if more than 3 players have less than $10. I also won't play if only 3 have ~$25+. Those are my absolute maximum and minimums. IMO, you would do well to follow similar guidelines.
This is far above the norm. If you can make 25BB/AA then you're doing very well.

IMO short stacks are the best opponents when you hold AA/KK type hand. You really don't want to be playing 150BB deep with AA/KK unless you can get like 30-40BB in pre-flop.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:34 PM   #16
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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This is far above the norm. If you can make 25BB/AA then you're doing very well.

IMO short stacks are the best opponents when you hold AA/KK type hand. You really don't want to be playing 150BB deep with AA/KK unless you can get like 30-40BB in pre-flop.
Option A: Play AA consistently for <25BB against a 25/10/2 short stack.
Option B: Play AA consistently for 100BB against a 40/5/5 fish.

I'll take option B.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:36 PM   #17
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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Originally Posted by aznbluff View Post
This is far above the norm. If you can make 25BB/AA then you're doing very well.

IMO short stacks are the best opponents when you hold AA/KK type hand. You really don't want to be playing 150BB deep with AA/KK unless you can get like 30-40BB in pre-flop.
His point is still good though. A table is only "good" because it has fish at it. But if all those fish have ~40bb stacks each, even if you run incredibly well you're only going to make a maximum of 40bb per fish. And once those fish are busted there's no guarantee that the next person to sit down in that seat is going to be as bad. You can make far more money just by sitting to the left of a single fish with a 150bb stack, no matter who else is at the table, because you're going to be able to keep taking money off them for much longer.

The ideal situation, imo at least, is to have several deep stacks to your right and several shallow stacks to your left.
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:32 PM   #18
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

since unl is so easy for all the reasons stated by the OP. why do people even bother to move up?

isn't it easier/less stressful/just as profitable to beat unl for 10+ptbb? instead of playing fewer tables at higher stakes and grind out 1ptbb?
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:38 PM   #19
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

would you rather make 5$ an hour or $100?
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:46 PM   #20
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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would you rather make 5$ an hour or $100?
the profit increases don't seem to be 20x though...
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:04 PM   #21
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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the profit increases don't seem to be 20x though...
Grind through 10NL until you have a $2000 BR and tell me you don't want to move up.

I know...who in their right mind would stay at 10NL but you get my point. You play at the highest level that a) Your bankroll can afford properly, and b) that you can consistently beat for a reasonable amount.
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:47 PM   #22
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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Originally Posted by pairtheboard69 View Post
since unl is so easy for all the reasons stated by the OP. why do people even bother to move up?

isn't it easier/less stressful/just as profitable to beat unl for 10+ptbb? instead of playing fewer tables at higher stakes and grind out 1ptbb?
It's possible to beat most stakes for ~7 bb/100 (which is obviously more profitable than playing uNL for 10 bb/100), it just takes more skill the higher the stakes are. That skill only comes from moving up whenever possible and improving your game, though; you'll never become a winning player at 5000NL by grinding at 50NL for the rest of your life.
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:11 PM   #23
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

When's part 4 coming out?
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Old 05-13-2008, 05:35 PM   #24
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

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When's part 4 coming out?
I'm hoping/thinking part 4 will be Position.
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:35 PM   #25
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Re: Why you suck at uNL Part Three: Game Selection

another great thread
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