Yes. I get a little frustrated when I have the nuts or close to it and thin value-bet the river and villain folds--then, the very next hand, said villain stacks off with middle pair to someone with a monster. Why not call me villain? Seriously. I also get pretty upset when I open raise aces for 3-4xBB (and plenty of other hands too, it's not like I push with aces!) and the table just folds. Then some moron goes all-in with AA for 100-200BB and gets freakin' 2-3 callers and mops up the table.

The numbers are VP$IP/PFR.

VP$IP = Voluntarily Put $ Into Pot (or the % of hands you call/raise with)
PFR = Pre-Flop Raise (or the % of hands you open-raise with)

are you sure about the open-raise part?

33/14 means a player voluntarily enters a pot 33% of the time (calling or raising before the flop, even if that player subsequently folds), and raises before the flop 14% of the time. There's a FAQ


The players scattering effect generally means they were willing to see a flop with almost anything (typical), and missed (also typical). You weren't going to make much on the hand anyway, so take the profit and smile.

That is a counterexample to my post above, showing that cbetting air into 4 opponents actually can work! But it also tends to win you lots of small pots, and can cost you a few bigger ones when somebody calls and you decide to either fire again on the turn, or hit a hand that ends up 2nd best.

Yes, but that situation is typical at nanostakes. The few times it happens higher, you can checkfold and move on. At nanostakes, you'll see this over and over and over again, reducing the profit coming from the raise pre/cbet line.

certainly. It's playing 200bb or 300bb deep that is the real problem; the presence of shorties just complicates things further. Deep stacks take away the profit from big cards played aggressively, as they suffer from reverse-implied-odds.

I was all ready to agree with you on this one -- raising 9Ts on the button and getting called by the bb with J8o is exactly what you should do. Not so much to chase him out, as to win a big pot when you hit.

But cbetting 9Ts at somebody who will call with J-high is a losing proposition. This seems really, really obvious to me. If he won't fold, don't bet air! Who's playing losing poker here? Seems like you want more to be the tough guy than to exploit a gigantic flaw in his game.

LOLZ!!!

OP is both the funniest thing I've read on here in a while, and something I wish I had read , and read, and read 3 months ago. It answers like 40% of the question hands posted on the micro threads.

To further reinforce the pitfalls of calling preflop, and I think i am right when i say this:

Assuming the initial raiser raises to 4x the BB.
If you make a bad call 1 out of 20 hand (or 1 bad call every 3 orbits in 6max ) you're blowing 2PTBB/100 long term.

Thats a pretty big deal.

Calling OOP with Jack high vs a PFR is a leak. Regardless of what the PFR actually has. Go ahead and call me down with jack high because I don't ALWAYS have ten high.

Yes. Why? You gave the same answer I did. I'm not sure what your question is.

gedanken you are wrong, and Have an incorrect attitude towards the way to play poker.

You have the "omg they actually are never going to fold, anything ever!", this is simply not true. People fold a lot! The J8 is a PERFECT example! They miss so many flops, your opponent is not going to call you down on a AK5 flop when you cbet, they are pretty crazy but no MO****ING ******ed. Just stop arguing, you are wrong. There is a reason why all good players play aggressive. And If you play like this you can value bet mega sick if they call with actually anything. Turn down the Cbet Frequency on bad boards if they seriously call with absolutely ATC but that is just not true.

i looked it up in the meantime. it is "the percentage of time a player raised pre-flop."

open-raise would be if it is folded to the player who raises.

PFR = Pre-Flop Raise = Open Raise = Raise pre-flop = whatever else you want to call it.

I don't know what you mean by this.

I'm not "wrong", that's absurd to say about NL holdem playing styles, especially preflop. I have a different point of view, and a I'm partly just playing devils advocate here, as I tried to make clear. Maybe I'm overstating my case a little -- I think you're misreading me somewhat. I certainly am not advocating a lack of aggression. Good things happen when you bet! There are limits, though.

Much of the advice given about uNL sounds like this: don't bluff, value bet strongly, believe bets. That's not at all inconsistent with what I'm talking about.

There's the concept of longball vs smallball. Smallball is good poker at high stakes: showing down good hands, stealing, challenging opponents when you have a good read, and winning lots of pots is steadily profitable. Getting that good read and stealing pots at .02NL is much harder, you have to agree with me, yes?

Meanwhile, the longball approach of playing for monsters finds excellent conditions at a nanostakes table: the chance to draw cheap and get paid big.

There is a huge distinction to be made for the beginners here: playing 40/5 will not make you profitable! playing smart, tough 20/18 is a big improvement from the way most beginners play. I'm talking about maximizing your profits at the conditions you find at .02/.05, 200bb deep. Limping and calling too much will put you in tough situations and you'll have to play good poker to pull it off, but I suspect that this can be MORE profitable than the TAG strategy you'd want to use at a $1/$2 table full of aggressive opponents.

And don't think I'm going to stop arguing just because you tell me to

open-raise means specifically that you are the FIRST player to enter the pot. If somebody limps, and then you raise, it's not an open-raise (but it is still a preflop raise).

The guy who replied to you is kinda harsh and don't take it personal. That guy should lighten up on ya! Bottom line is winning poker has almost no place for limping and calling. Winning poker is leading out and raising. If you want to see winning players in action. Go to cardplayer.com and watch the free videos they post each week. They post low/microlimit videos of online pros playing real games, full ring, 6 max, torneys all of it. You will see that they almost never limp or call. It's Bet and raise a huge % of the time. At the stakes your playing players are terrible, I mean really bad and the money you can make is sick. essentially though the guy is correct. RAISE MAN, RAISE!

True, but we're talking about your PFR percentage in Poker Tracker so I'm not sure why you're dialing down the definations so much. It's all the same to your PFR stat.

no, if only open raises would count to your PFR-Percentage the number would be very different.

Yes, you're correct. The origional question was about the PFR numbers people are using in this thread, so how is what I posted wrong?

It makes no difference to your PFR if someone limps in front of you or not.

Thanks - I am use to seeing them presented xx/yy/zz so I assumed these were different numbers - Mike

question AQo IP with a 4times the bb raise from EP, how do you Proceed???

or for this matter AJsor 10Js.....

Readless, I fold all aces except AK.

There can be arguments made for JTs type of hands; it's really dependent on who the raiser is, your postflop skill, and implied odds.

I'm seriously confused now. That's not what I said at all. We're talking about the PFR stat.

No, that's wrong. The question was about the PFR stat, NOT the definations of open-raise vs. pre-flop raise.

Yes, you guys are both right that an open-raise is first in the pot. However, to your PFR, it's all the same.

This is really the only part I disagree about then.


Yea call with pocket, pairs, call with suited connectors.


But I'd also call with AQ a bunch, AJ sometimes, and KQ sometimes. (As well as suited 1 gappers in a lot of the spots that I'd call with suited connectors.) Maybe OP'er just meant it's not a good idea to start doing that until you improve a bit and move up a few levels.

Jesus Guys LISTEN TO ME. 3 Bet or Fold PLEASE ! Just trust me! you can add more to your game later but jesus please just 3 bet or fold. One day you will thank me.

VERY occasionally i think a call in position is ok but i dont want to make exceptions and then have you guys do it mroe then a few times if ever. JUST DONT CALL, other then the listed reasons. Please, please please.

Also CC with likely dominated hands sucks even worse.

Yeah, it's even worse when you've just got sucked out on, then get dealt AA on the button. "Sweet, I'll get some of my money back!"

Fold-fold-fold-fold-"Uh oh....gah, blinds, please have a hand please have a hand please have a hand"-4xbb raise-fold fold.


Son of a bitch.

It usually sucks but it happens all the time, not just at the micros. Just remember the times when you did get action. AA can't always get paid off.


To OP: Bloody brilliant post. Point 1 was probably my major leak for sure.

I've been winning consistently lately, but pissing the majority of them away later by doing the dumbass things you mentioned.

My biggest leak seems to be not RE-RAISING with hands such as 10-10 , AQ etc... In certain spots it is obviously not the best idea to re-raise but I still feel as though I am playing a guessing game preflop if I don't re-raise obviously, but that way I am still giving them a chance to steal the pot when I probably could have the best hand but don't want to have to put a large amount of money in the pot to find out...

Help ?


I didn't read through the entire thread, just skimmed through, but I suppose the 3-bet or fold rule applies for my leak ?