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Old 05-19-2017, 06:32 AM   #1
Yeodan
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Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

This is one of the fundamentals I've always been thought, but I don't really understand the reasons for it.

You often get good odds to call, especially against loose players.
So why not call often and try to hit something good?

Not talking about going 60-20 or something, but around 20-10 ; 30-20 seems fine?
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:54 AM   #2
Darth_Maul
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

A small gap is unavoidable but 10% is too large. The reason is simply that a larger gap makes it easier for opponents to put you on ranges when you act. If you raise every hand you play, for example, they will have a much harder time narrowing down your range.

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Old 05-20-2017, 02:56 PM   #3
OilSpill
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

You'll usually face the players with 30/20 or 20/18 or something like that because of what darth maul said. Pay attention to the kinds of hands they aren't raising with and take advantage of the ranges that correspond . You will usually find people limping small pocket pairs to set mine or mixing in limps with ak and aq to keep their ranges balanced. I just got 3bet with aces by a guy with 6-7s and he flopped a straight that I never saw coming because of this balancing strategy. I of course adjusted my play towards him but that's just one way to look at it.
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:48 PM   #4
Fatboy54
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

Quote:
You often get good odds to call, especially against loose players.
So why not call often and try to hit something good?
Being focused (and obsessed) by stats shows up a lot in BQ. They are nothing more than a representation of how you play your range, and a lot of the time quite meaningless.

Consider...

If I was to play a a table of tight regs over a long period of time I'd end up with stats like 20/16 or 22/18 or sumink similar.

But if I'm playing a table of loose whales, my stats will be all over the place as I look to play any exploitive spot.

Against a tight aggro reg, I'm not be calling much OOP no matter the odds, because I know it is going to be tough to realise my equity as he pounds away, with good bet-sizing, street by street and I'm not going to flop gin enough to make a profit.

Against a loose passive, conversely I'll be playing (and calling) a shedload because of all the postflop errors he will make.

tldr, stop worrying about stats, start thinking about spots.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:09 PM   #5
Aces123123
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

I think the main reason is that it is better to play aggressive poker, it gives you two ways to win the hand. By being aggressive or by flopping something good. But the theory fails to take into account that preflop isn't the only street where you can be aggressive.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:21 AM   #6
ArtyMcFly
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

A very large gap means you're limping or calling too often pre-flop. No one ever stole the blinds by calling pre. Raising gives you an additional method of winning.

Most players (especially beginners) don't understand how much of their profit comes from winning pots without making a hand, and instead treat the game like some sort of slot machine. You make money by raising to charge other people to try and make a hand. Most of the time, they won't, so a lot of your money comes from their -EV calls.
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:28 PM   #7
venice10
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

In a negative sum game, you are a loser if you win only your fair share of the money. You have to take more than your fair share.

Ten years ago, pokerstars allowed some researchers look at how players actually played in the micro world. Even at that time, nearly 1/3 of all hands were won by a player that was actually behind. You're unlikely to win those hands if you are calling pf. And when you do, it is more expensive to win those hands than if you had raised pf.
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:41 PM   #8
TheDefiniteArticle
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

As PFR increases, your VPIP/PFR gap can increase. This is because PFR should increase along with the size of your postflop edge. This turns threshold hands into profitable calls.

VPIP/PFR gaps should be small because you're not good enough for a large one.
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Old 05-23-2017, 08:22 AM   #9
Yeodan
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

What happens to me a lot in small stakes MTT's and live MTT's is that a lot of people limp in before me.
Basically giving me odds to call with A2C.

How often am I folding in these spots?

Obviously I'm not limping in first often (if at all) and also not out of position.

It just seems smart to call when a lot of people limp, because they'll be easy to outplay post-flop.
Hit something => value bet, one of them will call most of the time
Miss => fold, bluffing these loose players does not work




Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
In a negative sum game, you are a loser if you win only your fair share of the money. You have to take more than your fair share.

Ten years ago, pokerstars allowed some researchers look at how players actually played in the micro world. Even at that time, nearly 1/3 of all hands were won by a player that was actually behind. You're unlikely to win those hands if you are calling pf. And when you do, it is more expensive to win those hands than if you had raised pf.
On the tables I would have a high VPIP and lower PFR I wouldn't be likely to win any pots by bluffing.
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:18 AM   #10
Hrmmmm
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

It is inevitable that the gap will increase as you play looser unless you proportionally increase your 3betting range.

The real question is: is it smarter to 3bet often when you have to play loose or is it smarter to call often?
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:34 AM   #11
Kelvis
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

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Originally Posted by Hrmmmm View Post
It is inevitable that the gap will increase as you play looser unless you proportionally increase your 3betting range.

The real question is: is it smarter to 3bet often when you have to play loose or is it smarter to call often?
3bet all day long and not even close.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:58 PM   #12
Hrmmmm
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

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Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
3bet all day long and not even close.
Yeah.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:44 AM   #13
FindNameHere
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

In short, means you call too much and aint raising enough, most winning styles include agression and the bigger the gap, generally the bigger the station
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:55 AM   #14
Poker Clif
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Re: Why is having a "big" difference in VPIP and PFR bad?

Check out a micro tournament sometime. If you don't play micros or don't want to watch an entire tournament, just check in every half hour and watch what happens to the player stats.

What you'll find is that early in the tournament the numbers will be big and the gaps will be big. In level 1 the two hands to your left might be 40/5 and 25/25. As the tournament goes on you will see less and less of that because the bad players are getting knocked out. After an hour the hands on your left might be 30/10 and 25/15, and after three hours they might be 20/15 and 9/5.*

-----------

*9/5 is of course too tight, but tight players usually last a lot longer than someone with a VPIP over 30.
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