Clearly not many people in this forum are educated on this subject.

Here are a couple of examples of good spots to slowplay KK (obv you can also do this with AA and sometimes QQ) in donkaments.


No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t150/t300 Blinds + t25 - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: t16355
BTN: t6455
SB: t1405
BB: t4665
UTG: t5845
UTG+1: t31760
UTG+2: t21695
Hero (MP1): t6320
MP2: t5195

Pre Flop: (t675) Hero is MP1 with K K
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t750, 1 fold, Hero calls t750

calling here is good since we are unlikely to get action shoving over an ep raise since it looks super strong, we can induce a squeeze, and often we will also win a cbet from the pfr (the plan is to jam lots of flops) or get them to stack of lighter than they would have pre.



No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t150/t300 Blinds + t25 - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: t16355
Hero (BTN): t10120
SB: t6405
BB: t22465
UTG: t5845
UTG+1: t31760
UTG+2: t21695
MP1: t6320
MP2: t8195

Pre Flop: (t675) Hero is BTN with K K
6 folds, Hero raises to t750, 1 fold, BB raises to t1825, Hero calls t1075

calling is good here since the BB is likely only stacking off with a pretty narrow range pf, yet their range for 3betting can be relatively wide. Again, we can win an extra cbet/get lighter stack-offs by just calling pre.

I think most the people in the thread I started (which you linked to) were referring to the specific situation that I stated. In that situation there were no raisers.

imo most ppls attitude is OMG NO DONT SLOWPLAY ANTHING EVER EVER EVER. It's not all bad.

Flatting to disguise =/= limping 9h

I rarely slow play anything unless I have a good read on villians betting tendencies.

No need for it at lower lvls.

you are clearly not maximising your ev

Clearly?

How do you get that from what I posted.
To make a statement like yours,I would think you need a little more info then what I gave.

Yes I slowplay but I do not use it as much as I used to when I first started.

it's definitely worth having in your arsenal though, there are occassions where it's +ev.

the general advice given to beginners is not to slowplay at the micros, mostly because it's obvious they don;t know the right times to do it and get in to all sorts of trouble.

but once you progress to your ever-so-slightly-better-than-average beginner, it's worth looking at concepts above abc poker to try and understand them. even if you're not implementing them, it helps with running through the hands afterwards and seeing if you could've played differently.

I agree Bumblebee..I was just thinking in context to this being a Beginners forum.

Reason why I wouldnt suggest people do it till they got a good grasp of poker.

I agree to this and disagree with OP...

you are not giving any reads on villains when you slowplay....

slowplay is good to have in arsenal sure, but it should be done against aggressive opponents or you are losing huge value.... someone who is squeezing alot, maniacs

its just like a check raise, you dont do it when an opponent is likely to check behind

You should think about slowplaying as it helps you get better at poker - the reason advice of no slowplay is given at the micro's imo is that new players (and even old players) slowplay based on absolute hand values, when that is absolutely wrong.

Do you see the thought process david is using? that is most important

You should play fast with a quads sometimes, and "slowplay" a flopped top pair on a disgusting board.

edit: at above poster, if you're talking about w/o initiative, then you have to have reads to lead out c/r is 100% standard, with initiative c/r is just fps obv leave it out until you understand how to use it.

You only slowplay with a good read. Readless, in the situations I posted calling is more +ev than raising imo.

Even if you disagree with that statement about these situations, you should surely agree that there is at least 1 situation in which, readless, slowplaying is more +ev than not.

So, if you only slowplay with a read you are not maximising your ev.

sure, i know you know that.

i wasn't calling you out, i just wanted to highlight the 'never do this' tint to your post for others. don't mind me.

Against regs I like to take these lines but against randoms(fish) I usually just play straight forward.

In a micro donkament people don't play back/cbet with air often but they will happily stack off with any ace + broadway or pp higher than 77s. Until you go higher I really hate slowplaying unless you're up against a complete maniac.

Agreed. As a microstakes SNG player, I usually only slowplay when I have a very aggressive read against somebody I'm HU with, or late on the final table when everybody is fighting for chips

the hands you posted you don't give any real reads on players or any of there history, how are we to know if these are good spots to slowplay if you don't give more info?

hand 1 is UTG raising from EP often and always 3.5bb? what are his stats?

hand 2 what is the history between you and the bb? he just 3-bet you is he doing this often?

also what stakes are these?

You guys are looking too much into the actual hands posted instead of looking at the theory of the idea. What david is trying to accomplish is trying to get the idea of "never and always" out of your head and start thinking about possible ways to include non-standard lines into your game. Non-standard lines allow you to think outside the box and have an additional element/elements in your game... thus making it more difficult to play against.

amen

Here's the Only situation I'm limping AA/KK. Sorry I couldnt get HH to convert. I often have 'issues' with FTR. I'm raising this just like I did my JTs from CO 4hands ago when there was 1limper and 2weak blinds. I'll (Try To) trap with QQ+ hu (mayyyyyybe 3handed) but other than that...I dont think it's worth it (at any level). IDK, maybe it's just me but I seem to remember 'Vividly' those times i put forth fps, (Fancy Play Syndrome) and it blew up in my face. IMO, there's nothing 'fancy' about not getting chips in the pot with a monster hand pf. ORRRR, allowing draw hands into the pot that's gonna cost you chips (later on) to figure out you're behind, so now you have to muck AA/KK/QQ!

As well, I dont want my villains to know if I'm raising AA or 'complete air'! (Which, I want them to think I would NEVER DO!)

This was a st sng.

Hand#204967F030000155 - $10 NL Hold'em T7811696 -- Table 1 -- $40/$200/$400 NL Hold'em -- 2009/11/14 - 00:10:57
Seat 1: Mon*** ($6,182 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero: ($8,818 in chips) DEALER
Hero posts ante of 40
Mon*** posts ante of 40
Hero: posts small blind 200
Mon***: posts big blind 400
Dealt to Hero [Kc,Kd]
Hero: calls 200
Mon***: checks
*** FLOP *** [8h,7s,3d]
Mon***: bets 880
Hero: raises to 1,760
Mon***: calls 880
*** TURN *** [6s]
Mon***: checks
Hero: bets 4,400
Mon***: is all in 3982.0000
Hero: returns uncalled bet 418
Hero: shows [Kc Kd]
Mon***: shows [8s 4c]
*** RIVER *** [6d]
***SHOW DOWN***
Hero: wins 12,364 with Two Pairs, Kings and Sixes

And it's sensible (from my pov) for villain to think his tp was good here and call off his chips. He had caught me bluff r/rr a time or two and I had (twice i think) shown him like,..33 and 910s when I felt positive he had (at least) 2nd pr and I couldn't even beat the board. But I also showed him QQ (ONCE) to let him know that yes, he did in fact, muck the weaker hand.

Anyway, no limps with monsters (or any other hand) from me.

my2

lol

there is a very good post by pantsonfire 28 posts itt:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...ing-aa-458697/

There's no issue with slowplaying a big pair occassionally to mix it up or try and extract value, as long as you can get away from the hand postflop.

The truth is a lot of beginners aren't going to be able to do that. How many times have we all seen (or maybe done it themselves),

-limping/calling only with big pair getting two+ opponents
-nasty flop like A99, 789, 3 flush cards etc
-first to act bets pot, next to act raises all in, the guy with QQ dumps his stack in the middle and makes an early exit.

Obviously calling there is bad play but it happens so often. Highlights the importance of being able to lay down big pairs, especially if you're going to try and slowplay them. If you're even considering entertaining the idea of slowplaying bigpairs, you need to be able to make disciplined laydowns.

LOL Speaking of KK! This happened 5mins ago. 1st hand. 1st table i sit at today. it!

Hand#20506810BB000001 - $10 NL Hold'em T6920027 -- Table 1 -- $0/$10/$20 NL Hold'em -- 2009/11/14 - 18:08:48
for***8: posts small blind 10
pue***9: posts big blind 20
Dealt to Hero [Kd,Kc]
6o***10: calls 20
sak***1: folds
MF***2: calls 20
Sc***3: folds
$k***4: is all in 1500
Hero: is all in 1500
top***6: folds
TR***7: folds
ort***8: folds
ps***9: folds
6co***10: folds
MF***2: folds
$k***4: shows [9s 9h]
Hero: shows [Kd Kc]
*** FLOP *** [Td,2c,4s]
*** TURN *** [Qs]
*** RIVER *** [9d]
***SHOW DOWN***
$k***4: wins 3,070 with Three of a Kind, Nines
Hero finished 10 out of 10 players.

I agree with op that flatting a raise or a 3bet can sometimes be much better than jamming as it disguises your hand very well.

Just to be clear though OP i think that linked thread is about overlimping KK which im guessing you would think is not the best idea?