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Old 07-14-2017, 05:08 AM   #1
rs411
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what would you do in this spot?

Sorry for making new thread for this hand but i m new here so i dont really know where to post this

Please give me your advice on this hand.
Live cash game 1/2 blinds

Here i made a replay of hand.please note utg made straddle to 4

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/view.php/id/8386150

6 players on the table,UTG puts a straddle to 4e,utg+1 call,me raise to 17 with JJ (heart and club) fold to straddler,he raises to 40 and utg+1 folds and its back to me.
We both have around 310e stacks and here my first tought was ALLIN or just flat call.So assuming we are very deep i decide to flat call him and flop comes 10 7 5 (2 clubs).Pot was already 85e.He checks and i bet 50e.so He just goes allin after i bet 50e and i have to call 210e.Honestly it was really late and i made a huge mistake not really thinking about his range but instead just seeing what my hand is,which is overpair with backdoor flushdraw.So i snapcall ,turn and river where both some small cards but both clubs,so i made a Jhigh flush on river
and his showdown? KK and he won on K-high flush

Now i know it was mistake but do you guys think it was a very big mistake or was it more of a setup with no exit door?

Please let me know what you guys think about this hand
Thanks
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:21 AM   #2
CosmosInside
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

I think you made a mistake. good luck for next time..
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:09 AM   #3
Fatboy54
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

You answered your own question...

Quote:
i made a huge mistake not really thinking about his range
...wp on that.

KK v JJ live on an all low board with preflop 3bets...it's always got a bit of the cooler in it, even 150bb deep, so never a huge mistake imo.

It swings on your reads...loose aggro with bluffing capability, relatively easy call.

Nitty passive no bluffs, relatively easy fold.

but either way the learning point is don't prod buttons (sorry online speak, for think before you act)
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:50 AM   #4
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

I do this occasionally, especially if I have been playing for several hours. I fixate on my hand, and look at my hand strength objectively, not in the context of the hand. I have an overpair to the board, and know that this is a strong hand. After I get knocked out (I usually play MTT's) and I am reconstructing the hand, I will realize that I never stopped to ask what range he could be playing with.

In your case, unless you have some monster reads, he is representing a nuttish read. After his flop shove, I would put him on an overpair (at the low end of his range), with sets and Axc combos in there as well. The only hand you beat is a big ace with the ace of clubs (and a non club second card). A hand like AcKh is the only hand he plays like he did that you are ahead of. And even then, he would have a ton of outs on you.

This is a fold, and a 'it's time to leave'.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:33 PM   #5
mxp2004
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

This is a clear bet/fold on the flop. You are behind every possible hand that is consistent with the action.

Let's start with preflop. Villain min-raises and then triples your 3-bet. There are not many hands that are consistent with this type of action. Assuming Villain is a typical player and you have not seen him get out of line before, I'd assume that Villain's range looks something like TT+, AK, and AKs. If this were a live 1/2 NL game, in my experience the Villain's range would be even smaller and would likely consist of QQ+, AK, and AKs.

Villain's line on the flop is strange, but after you bet, he suddenly wants to play for stacks. While you have an overpair, it's the smallest possible overpair to this board. You are way behind the bottom of his range (TT) and all of his bigger pairs. You are even slightly behind AcKc, a hand that has 52% equity to go along with the 15 outs. Based on the new information presented by the flop action, Villain's range is now pretty clearly something like TT, QQ+, and AcKc (I'm excluding JJ because you've got the other two). You've got about 20% equity against that range.

Thus, unless you have a good reason to believe that Villain is bluffing, JJ is not a big enough hand in this spot with which to stack off. It's an easy fold.

Last edited by mxp2004; 07-14-2017 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:16 AM   #6
Tutejszy
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

it's not 150bb deep, it's 75bb deep

also, since the game is in euro, I'm assuming you're playing in Europe - in this case, I'm most likely shoving pre for value, or playing it the way you played it. Most games in Europe are waaay looser and more aggro than ones in US, so folding anywhere here would be a big mistake, it's just a cooler. The way the hand played out I'd often expect to see something like 88 or A7s from the straddler (honestly, the games in Europe are VERY different).
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:05 PM   #7
madlex
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutejszy View Post
it's not 150bb deep, it's 75bb deep
If the game has no mandatory straddle, it's still 150bb deep. UTG (blind) shoving for 300€ doesn't turn it into a game that's 1bb deep.

OOP I'd just ship it preflop, IP there's merit to play it the way you did pre. Folding against the check/shove is prolly the right play against somebody on the passive side. Against an aggressive opponent you played it fine in my opinion. If you don't want to call it off against aggros, you probably shouldn't bet the flop.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:06 PM   #8
FirstPlaceOrBust
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

as played, bet 20-25BB on the flop, fold to his shove. I feel he would have shoved no matter how much you bet

good luck!

added note: i remember someone else on the forums posting that, "JJ is only truly profitable if 1010 is in your opponents range". On the flop, any pocket from 1010 to AA would have you beat. just my 2+2 cents.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:42 AM   #9
Tutejszy
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

Quote:
If the game has no mandatory straddle, it's still 150bb deep. UTG (blind) shoving for 300€ doesn't turn it into a game that's 1bb deep.
it does, actually (it's 1bb deep, but with almost non existant SB), and you should adjust accordingly. However, bear in mind that most people DON'T adjust correctly, so someone calling that blind shove is gonna have far from optimal calling range 1bb deep, so you should play tighter vs someone calling. On the other hand, since people behind you will call way too tight, you can take more marginal spots first in (just remember that you also need to beat rake).

Again, it feels like everyone is viewing this hand in a super nitty way, which might be correct in US envoirment (from what I read here), but in Europe when people go to casino they like to play lots of big pots, so readless this is easy stackoff, either pre or on the flop.

I could write a huge post about differences between US games (which I know from reading 2p2) and ones in Europe, which I know from experience and some PGCs, but this isn't really time and place
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:58 PM   #10
madlex
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutejszy View Post
it does, actually
How deep is it if UTG looked at one card before going all-in? How deep if it might be a shove of honor?
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:19 PM   #11
Fatboy54
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

Quote:
so readless this is easy stackoff,
Quote:
This is a clear bet/fold on the flop.
Quote:
It swings on your reads...loose aggro with bluffing capability, relatively easy call.

Nitty passive no bluffs, relatively easy fold.
hey op, welcome to BQ
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Old 07-16-2017, 08:03 PM   #12
the_glaive
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

Okay, assuming your villain is an average player, not ultra loose and aggressive...

He min raises UTG and when you raise to 8.5 BBs he decides to make it 20 BBs. With that raise he's saying that if you want to shove, he'll call, since he's put in about 13% of his stack pre-flop and you were plenty aggressive with your own bet. But how serious should you think he is about that play and does he have the goods?

One other player has called that bet and of course there are the blinds, so could he think you're just trying to squeeze? Well maybe, since everyone folds to him, but no, not really, because the blinds are short stacked and could shove into a big raise. I think most players have to figure you're not messing around and you're willing to call the blinds if they shove. This is particularly true of the big blind, where you would have to call a shove even if you think you're probably behind. Since you have put in $17 and the big blind has $28 left, if the big blind shoved and everyone else folded then you would have to bet a further $11 for pot of $56. You would need to win about 20% of the time to profitably call if the big blind shoves, which means you'll be calling for sure unless you're betting with something completely wild. So, when you bet $17 you're really saying you're fine with making it $30.

Your UTG player must therefore credit you with a good hand and must have a hand that they believe is premium should you get it all in pre-flop. Really I think with that move and the sequence of betting it is most likely to be AA or KK, but let's say AA, KK, QQ, AK, and let's also imagine a second slightly broader range as well. Let's imagine JJ, 10s and AQ are also in your villain's range.

On the flop, you bet and get shoved on. If your player's range is AA, KK, QQ and AK then this is consistent and you're crushed against three of these potential holdings. If he has AK of clubs you're also behind and really a shove with AK that hasn't connected doesn't make sense against your bet.

If we broaden the range then AQ of clubs could also be a shoving hand and you're just as behind against that holding. 10s made a set and you're way behind. You're blocking JJ, but it's possible, in which case you're splitting.

So, with our first imagined range, you're massively behind against 3/4 of the hands he might have. The AK could be suited clubs, but I think we have to ignore that because you would still have odds to call given it would be a race.

With our second, broader imagined range, you're behind against 4/7. So even if we put our villain on a broader range and imagine he's a bit looser, we're losing more than we're winning.

We could switch this up a bit and imagine he's bluffing say 1/5 times in this spot (unlikely) and he either has AA, KK, QQ, AK or complete air, but still you're losing like 3/5 times.

In conclusion, call pre-flop was okay given stack sizes. Bet on the flop is also reasonable if for no other reason than to continue showing strength and find out where you are. Calling off your stack is understandable given a big over pair, but a mistake when you consider your villain's range.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:31 AM   #13
jabaman420
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

You played the hand well by flitting. Sometimes you get unlucky it's part of the game
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:58 AM   #14
Kelvis
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_glaive View Post
Okay, assuming your villain is an average player, not ultra loose and aggressive...

He min raises UTG
Nope he straddled.

OP why did you bet the flop?
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:19 AM   #15
cashnotakite
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Re: what would you do in this spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
Nope he straddled.

I'm glad someone pointed this out, it really affects the dynamics of the hand
Sent from my MotoG3 using 2+2 Forums
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