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Old 07-30-2012, 09:07 AM   #16
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Re: What makes the great players great?

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Originally Posted by Studebaker Hawk View Post
Pretty good, but does it apply to high stakes pros?
I see them making moves that are 'wrong' all the time - yes they do call from lp with QTo! Because they are playing a different game to us (well, me), where they need to worry much more about deception, meta game etc. Plus they know their opponents are also pros not just playing premium pairs and AKs.
But they AREN'T calling in lp with QTo FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THEY HAVEN'T PLAYED A HAND IN AWHILE.

When they play QTo they're doing so with a PLAN - i.e. they know the raiser frequently raises light and cbets air (planning to checkraise), they know the raiser raises light and then aborts if the flop misses them (stealbet IP), they know that if they flop a Q or a T they can figure out whether or not any of their opponents have them beat, if they're lucky enough to flop a Q and T or QQ or TT or J9/KJ/KJ9 etc and get to show it down they know they've shown the villains they're capable of such random plays (harder to put them on a hand) etc.

Or, if there are already several players in the pot, calling with QTo hoping to see a cheap flop isn't such a bad play.

THAT'S the difference.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:18 AM   #17
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Re: What makes the great players great?

What makes great players great?

Chicken Nuggets and Soda.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:20 AM   #18
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Re: What makes the great players great?

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guys , this is just what we think very good players SHOULD do. But we do not know for sure.

Plus , all those ideas are so generall that they cannot be argued with , as they do not really say much.

Take one random point , let us say "Playing wiht a plan" , it sounds good , but unless you actually know what is the plan for J9s , KAof , 33 ,..... you are not actually saying anything new.

In reality , a beginner in poker should ask himself "what makes a losing player lose less ?" , because this is his level.
I don't agree with this at all.

If a beginner is playing hands just because he's bored, HE NEEDS TO STOP.

If a beginner is just clicking buttons, thinking one street or even worse one BET at a time and not playing with a plan, HE NEEDS TO STOP. Even if one DOESN'T know what the plan is, if you at LEAST discipline yourself to just stop and think, ok what am I going to do if I get raised? What am I going to do on the next street if I get called? ONE'S GAME WILL IMPROVE. One's skill at analyzing all information and using it to make the right decision WILL IMPROVE.

If a beginner is just randomly clicking half-pot when he wants a call or full-pot when he wants a fold, HE NEEDS TO STOP. Even if he DOESN'T know the best betsize, his game will improve if he just develops the habit of stopping and thinking before clicking a button.

I agree with you that we don't know FOR SURE what goes on in the mind of an Ivey or a Negraneau or an Esfandiara, but I'll bet they have every single skill in my post MASTERED.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:21 AM   #19
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Re: What makes the great players great?

I'll bet another skill that the great players have, which goes hand in hand with good bankroll management, is they don't play scared money. In my example, when I sit down at a casino table with $200 I'm afraid to make aggressive bets and raises because for me $200 is a lot of money. When I sit down at a .02/.04 table, I don't hesitate for one second to make a move I feel is +EV based on my reads.
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:50 AM   #20
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Re: What makes the great players great?

I appreciate the time you took to type the op, but you're basically saying that great players don't make beginners-mistakes and this is what makes them great.
How did they become great? By studying their mistakes and eliminating them.

A beginner will learn more from their own mistakes than from seeing a great player 'not' making mistakes.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:39 AM   #21
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Re: What makes the great players great?

Lets not forget these guys dont play one table....I would say what you mentioned is applicable to any decent winning player and anyone can emulate....however not everybody can emulate 20 tabling for 8 hours a day. That is the true talent that separates the Pros from the winners....
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:36 PM   #22
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Re: What makes the great players great?

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I appreciate the time you took to type the op, but you're basically saying that great players don't make beginners-mistakes and this is what makes them great.
I don't think I'm saying that at all, and if that was implied it was certainly not my intention. Great players study MORE than average players. Great players have MORE experience than average players. Great players play with deeper, more intricate, more informed plans than average players. Great players know betsizes BETTER than average players.
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Old 07-30-2012, 03:10 PM   #23
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Re: What makes the great players great?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Studebaker Hawk View Post
Pretty good, but does it apply to high stakes pros?
I see them making moves that are 'wrong' all the time - yes they do call from lp with QTo! Because they are playing a different game to us (well, me), where they need to worry much more about deception, meta game etc. Plus they know their opponents are also pros not just playing premium pairs and AKs.
High stakes players have to mix up their play in order to keep their opponents guessing. They might check TPTK on a wet flop. Beginners shouldn't do this. We should follow standard ABC lines, avoiding fancy play and instead bet our strong hands and fold our marginal holdings.
In the micros, it's nearly always a mistake to try levelling someone. Just bet your hand!
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Old 07-30-2012, 06:15 PM   #24
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Re: What makes the great players great?

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What makes great players great?

Chicken Nuggets and Soda.
Don't forget the sweet and sour sauce!
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:13 PM   #25
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Re: What makes the great players great?

What's everyone's thoughts on how the great players handle preflop decisions that lead to easier postflop decisions? Do they keep those in mind, or are they less afraid of difficult decisions postflop (i.e. 99 in a mulitway pot with 2 overs) because of their skill?
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:02 PM   #26
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Re: What makes the great players great?

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan1 View Post
What's everyone's thoughts on how the great players handle preflop decisions that lead to easier postflop decisions? Do they keep those in mind, or are they less afraid of difficult decisions postflop (i.e. 99 in a mulitway pot with 2 overs) because of their skill?
That's a tough one, since there isn't really a standard line to take when in that situation (other than check-fold, if you're playing microstakes against a couple of calling stations).
At the highest stakes, as you know, it's not so much your cards that count, as the way you play the player.
I personally do everything I can to make all my decisions as easy as possible (by planning what I'll do if X or Y happens, before I put the first bet in). I think the top pros probably get more of a thrill by flying by the seat of their pants, as it were.
If you watch HSP, you'll see Negreanu or Dwan reconstructing a hand once it reaches the river. Their decisions can take several minutes. When we're playing online, our decisions have to be much quicker. As you've no doubt experienced, if you get out of your comfort zone early on in a hand, by opening JTo UTG or something, you tend to compound the error on later streets. Top pros are not just more experienced at making weird plays, but they are very good at getting out of trouble when they realise they've made a mistake.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:24 AM   #27
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Re: What makes the great players great?

this thread is like fat people giving expert fitness advice.
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:38 PM   #28
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Re: What makes the great players great?

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Originally Posted by ArtySmokes View Post
That's a tough one, since there isn't really a standard line to take when in that situation (other than check-fold, if you're playing microstakes against a couple of calling stations).
At the highest stakes, as you know, it's not so much your cards that count, as the way you play the player.
I personally do everything I can to make all my decisions as easy as possible (by planning what I'll do if X or Y happens, before I put the first bet in). I think the top pros probably get more of a thrill by flying by the seat of their pants, as it were.
If you watch HSP, you'll see Negreanu or Dwan reconstructing a hand once it reaches the river. Their decisions can take several minutes. When we're playing online, our decisions have to be much quicker. As you've no doubt experienced, if you get out of your comfort zone early on in a hand, by opening JTo UTG or something, you tend to compound the error on later streets. Top pros are not just more experienced at making weird plays, but they are very good at getting out of trouble when they realise they've made a mistake.
Agreed 100%. Couldn't have put it into better words.

As you saw in my other thread where I tried to play 78s, I get overconfident when I start winning and start playing too many hands thinking I can outplay fish post-flop, and it seems like every single time it bites me in the (*$#@(*$#@ - I'll win a dozen or two small pots and build up my stack, then I'll lose a huge pot when my straight loses to a higher straight, or flush over flush, or set over 2 pair etc. Sometimes it *is* just a cooler, but I sure seem to get "coolered" far more often when I'm playing a starting hand I shouldn't be playing.
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:50 PM   #29
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Re: What makes the great players great?

your drive to become great is what will make you "great"
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Old 08-01-2012, 07:33 AM   #30
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Re: What makes the great players great?

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Originally Posted by Widget View Post
unless one of the posters here is actually a great player, I really don't understand the point of this thread.
I mean basically this to be honest.

My opinion, #3 and nothing else on the list is even close.
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