Hey guys there a concept that some posters use when making decisions that Im not quite understanding and if anyone could explain a bit that'd be great. For example a hand like
3 folds, Hero in Co raises 2.5 bb KJ, 2 folds, bb calls,
Flop
J84
BB checks, Hero bets 3.5 bb, BB raises to 8bb
not sure if hand is good example but someone might say we can have many better hands in this spot like AA-JJ, Aj,88,44 so we can fold this combo. Does this have to do with being balanced? If we have enough equity against his range with our specific hand does it matter that we can have better hands, or if we were at top of our range but Vs range is mostly the nuts do we have to call. What I'm asking is mostly how much our own range matters in decisions like continuing with a certain % of our range, or bluff a certain percent or if this matters and we should be more focusing on opponents range and our specific hands equity against it. thanks!

Ok let's take a better example. You have 88 on J84dd and you get checkraised. Now you only have 3 combinations that are better so you obviously can't fold this however you have a read somehow that he only checkraises with the nuts. When you weigh your hand against his range (JJ, nuts) you have like 2% equity so it's a fold. When you look at your entire range it is beyond absurd to fold this hand. Would you make a better decision if you used this information, sure.

The problem is that when you are in a spot where you don't have information and you fold the second nuts you are making a huge mistake. In the extreme cases where you have total trash or a very good hand you are probably going to make the same decision either way but when it is quite a close spot and you don't want to call too much or fold too much you can look at your whole range and see what you should so. This also works when ranges are very wide and you have no actual clue what your equity is, in that case you can decide based on something you actually know and that prevents you from making an exploitable mistake.

Another example is you 3bet an open and he calls, flop is 882r. You bet and he raises, basically only representing an 8. It's such a weird play that he could be doing with an 8 or with nothing or with 77 or whatever. If you have no idea what this player is thinking then how do you estimate your equity? This is when you just look at which hands you need to call down with to make yourself balanced and whenever he bluffs too much or too little he loses money. Maybe sometimes you were 3betting with 89s or something like that but the vast majority of the time your best hand is AA. Therefor it is mandatory that you do not let that hand go no matter what because you can be bluffed by basically two napkins. Also since you have AK/AQ or bluffs etc you need to defend a few more pairs like KK/QQ/JJ.

Thanks this was very helpful. So mostly in situations we are not sure what to do we can try and stay somewhat balanced within our range so we're not exploited. I understood this better preflop but will definitely help me in some post flop situations.

Balance isn't a concept that particularly applies in this spot. It's a lot easier to consider balance when you're taking an aggressive action (betting or raising), since when you bet, you usually doing so mainly for value (you want to get called) or as a bluff (you want to elicit a fold), and it's by having bluffs in your range that your value hands get action and it's by having value hands in your range that your bluffs have some fold equity.
When your opponent takes an aggressive action (e.g. check-raising), he's usually polarizing (value and bluffs), so you just have to decide which range of hands does best against the value hands and bluffs that villain is representing. On the J84tt board, this would mean you continue with hands like JJ/88 (and many more combos) at the top of your range and you would also continue with hands like flush draws and even gutshots like Q9 or 76s, while you might fold weak made hands like J9 or 54 (if you chose to bet those in the first place). To that extent, your continuance range is "balanced" in that it contains things like top set at the same time as 7-high, while you fold some hands that are technically ahead of 7-high, but your aim isn't balance per se. Your aim is to call with hands that have a positive expectation against the range villain is playing.
FWIW, I would not be folding KJ with the backdoor flush draw on J84tt. It would often get dumped on the turn if the BDFD (or a king or jack) doesn't materialize, but you'd generally be folding way too often if you fold a good top pair + overcard + backdoor FD on a flop containing so many draws.

Great question and great replies.

I like the responses that say to simply play our hand against his range in the case of defense, or in the face of aggression. But doesn't our range still matter in the sense that it's what villain has to consider we have? In other words, thinking about how villain is ranging us plays a role in what types of hands he'd play that way, wouldn't it?

For example, suppose we have a very disguised hand. Maybe we have been playing really tight and have a nitty table image, and we raise with J-8s on this flop. Villain sees our hud stats and thinks we have sets only in our value hand category, doesn't really give us credit for many two pair combos. Well, if we think that he might be underestimating the strength of our range, couldn't it lead us to think he might be overbluffing slightly? Maybe not the best example, but just in general I think it helps to understand our perceived range as it plays a role in villain's strategy and so helps us determine the right play with our specific hand. Right?

Then you would be making the assumption that villain even noticed and acts on it. If you´re wrong and he isn´t bluffing too much you are making the mistake of calling too much.

Also by defending the appropriate part of your range you automatically make money when he is unbalanced.

This makes sense.

So I guess the follow up is this- you say "defending the appropriate part of your range" will make us money. Do we need to consider what our entire range is to determine what hands we'd choose to defend with and whether it seems like a optimal continuation level?

You need to defend the amount depending on the betsize. If he bets pot he is risking 1 to win 1 and needs to succeed 50% of the time. Since it isn't the river yet you need to account a bit for the fact he has some equity but you need to defend a little over 50% of your hands. The hands you choose don't necessarily have the best showdown equity but you should select them based on how well they play on the next streets. Folding second pair but calling with a gutshot to the nuts seems weird but sometimes when you hit the straight you win much more money and you can also use the hand as a bluff when you miss.

By the way if you made a mistake on earlier streets it's possible to play perfect and still lose money because you didn't bring enough hands to call down or bluff with. 90% of turns and rivers play themselves if you have a solid preflop and flop range.

Thanks arty! I do agree with calling this flop check raise I was more trying see how much the hand mattered in our own range. Are you really calling the raise with gutshots like q9s, 56s though? That seems kinda loose although we have implied odds and can bluff later streets

What do you think he is going to have when a 7 comes and he wants to get the money in. Those are some severe reversed implied odds.

Good point 76s is what I should have said. I would probably be contuing the raise with top pair decent kicker, sets, flush draws and 109 but gutshots seem loose especially since some outs are flush cards

I haven't folded a gutshot since 2014. (In some spots, it's optimal to float a flop 3-bet OOP with a gutter).
If you've got a lot more clearly profitable combos to call with, you can dump the worst draws, but things like a gutshot + BDFD (or gutter+overcard+blocker) in position are pretty good hands... if villain is playing reasonably balanced, such that his range is wide and contains bluffs that often give up. If he always has a set when he check-raises, then you can/should fold "exploitably" often.

EDIT: I just found an old screengrab from one of my old training sessions with Snowie. Since it's BvB and I limp-called pre, ranges are super wide. I then check-raise the flop with a gutshot, 2 overs and a BDFD/blocker and CALL the flop 3-bet. I bink the turn and it goes check-check (so villain hardly ever has a flush) and then I overbet jam the river. If villain didn't bink his 2-outer, I take the pot down, as I can rep so many flushes. When he does call, I win. #EasyGame


^ Don't try this (with the JT or the 55) at 2NL.