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Top set facing river shove. Call? Top set facing river shove. Call?

07-18-2017 , 07:23 PM
Is this a call otr? I only had 11 hands on villain from this sng. 64/9/6/20

Poker Stars, $4.57 Buy-in (15/30 blinds, 4 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 6 Players

BB: 704 (23.5 bb)
UTG: 1,773 (59.1 bb)
Hero (MP): 1,398 (46.6 bb)
CO: 1,648 (54.9 bb)
BTN: 1,441 (48 bb)
SB: 2,036 (67.9 bb)

Hero is MP with A A
UTG folds, Hero raises to 80, 2 folds, SB calls 65, BB folds

Flop: (214) K A 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets 130, SB calls 130

Turn: (474) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets 230, SB raises to 460, Hero calls 230

River: (1,394) 8 (2 players)
SB bets 1,362 and is all-in, Hero calls 724 and is all-in

Last edited by SharkytheFish; 07-18-2017 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Additional info
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 04:41 AM
Hello Sharky,

This is my opinion regarding the hand.

If it was me I would call that river shove with top set on the river.

I have a spade on my hand so he will unlikely have a flush since I hold one spade and the nut spade too.

If I do not have a spade on my hand I will fold my top set here. This is just to protect all my value hands, for me, you played the hand perfectly from the start .

My reasoning is if I will always fold my value hands on this turn card, then there is no sense value betting it in the first place and my opponents can just exploit me and bluff me by constantly check raising me on turn cards that completes a draw on the board.

But it is also important to find a fold here so that again the villain cannot exploit me by just check raising all his made draws on this turn.

So in my opinion I will always call my value hands especially Top Set with a spade and fold my value hands with out a spade.

Also, the board texture hit our raising range compared to his calling range since there are two high cards on the flop, check raising the turn he may have a set, two pair or a pair with a spade and tried to turn it into a bluff to put you off a hand like top pair, which you beat. Your range is so much ahead compared to his range aside from the flush draw which is unlikely.

If he has a flush in this instance then I will just put it as a cooler situation.

But that is just me, I would gladly love to hear anyone who can explain the fold in this situation and other consideration and factors that justify for folds.

Hope this helps,
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 06:31 AM
Shove turn, it's only 1/2 pot more and he is unlikely to bluff river if you flat. If he has you beat you have a million outs and if you have him beat he is basically drawing dead.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 06:38 AM
Key information missing - what can you tell us about villain? It's early in the tournament based on the blinds, and it's a pretty cheap tourney to boot, so in that context...it's entirely possible villain is some donk idiot who has A8 or something like that and thinks its the nuts.

I totally disagree with the idea that the A means you should call but if you didn't have the A you should fold. You having a in your hand reduces the odds of the villain having 2 spades by 2%. So with 3 spades on board and a flat from an OOP villain we have to keep spades in the possible range of hands he has. Further if villain has 2 spades then it reduces OUR REDRAW by 4%.

A flat from the SB is also possibly a weaker ace (even AK if he's really bad) or a smaller pair.

As played - call and puke in your hat as you leave because you put yourself in the spot where you were committed by betting the turn and calling the XR on the turn which inflated the pot.

Instead, however - I check the turn. You've got a flop monster that has turned into a strong showdown hand that can also lose it all for you. Again, what does villain call the flop with? Checking the turn keeps the pot smaller and you've got a great redraw to both the nut flush and the boat, and you're in position, so you can control the pot size.

If you check the turn then the pot is still only 474. Villain may have a flush, or he may have worse set or two pair. On the river villain may still bet but his bet won't be an all-in situation. If villain decides to do something like shove the river for 1800 well you can get away from that. If villain makes a pot sized bet or smaller I call and hope he's semi-bluffing but leverage that showdown value.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvis
Shove turn, it's only 1/2 pot more and he is unlikely to bluff river if you flat. If he has you beat you have a million outs and if you have him beat he is basically drawing dead.
This also works - because it uses position to keep you in control. What got you (OP) bent over the barrel was CALLING the checkraise. If you check the turn you avoid this but yes, since you bet the turn you have to shove after the checkraise - never just call.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 07:47 AM
Villain should either have QJss or JTss, or a hand you beat. Would he flat pre in the SB with AK, A3s or A6s or 33, or even something idiotic like K6s? A lot depends on how many suited combos he calls with. The ace in your hand and the Ks on the board means it's pretty hard for any half-decent player to have a flush, but this guy seems very loose.
I think I sigh-call as played (but fold without the nut flush blocker, as mentioned above by aryl), but in game I think I either 3-bet jam the turn (because of the stack to pot ratio), or check it back and call all rivers.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 09:44 AM
In a SNG (looks like 6m so 2 places pay unless it's a DON), I'd bet a little bigger OTF and check behind OTT since if you bet any reasonable amount and get raised you pretty much have to shove.

I tend to hate playing pot control with a flopped set, but SNGs are a different animal.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurn, son of Mogh
In a SNG (looks like 6m so 2 places pay unless it's a DON), I'd bet a little bigger OTF and check behind OTT since if you bet any reasonable amount and get raised you pretty much have to shove.

I tend to hate playing pot control with a flopped set, but SNGs are a different animal.
I like this comment .. More on the Flop for sure. Certainly more on the Turn if you are going to bet at all in order to make sure any raise it all-in and you can call for your flush out.

Checking the Turn does open the bluff door on the River but you get to see a free River. Are you really that interested in calls on the Turn in a tournament? This hand plays much easier in a cash setting. GL
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 11:10 AM
I think not betting turn would be a major mistake.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
I like this comment .. More on the Flop for sure. Certainly more on the Turn if you are going to bet at all in order to make sure any raise it all-in and you can call for your flush out.

Checking the Turn does open the bluff door on the River but you get to see a free River. Are you really that interested in calls on the Turn in a tournament? This hand plays much easier in a cash setting. GL
When I was playing a lot of SNGs before BF, I'd have bet the flop closer to pot and shoved the turn. If villain had the flush and I missed, so be it, I'd just start another one.

As played in this hand, the min raise OTT for this specific opponent looks too strong and that may have clouded my judgment, and that's incorrect on my part since Hero's decision point come before he would've seen that.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 12:04 PM
Yes .. the OMC min-raise on the Turn screams flush, especially when we are holding the A of flush in our hand. GL
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 12:16 PM
By the way even if we 100% know he has a flush and he just open shoves the turn you're getting near exact odds to call with 38% equity. If you add any other combination of 66, AK, AxQs or A3s it makes you a massive favorite on the turn.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote
07-19-2017 , 07:31 PM
Thanks for the replies. With this many outs and the potential for an action killing spade otr I'm inclined to think shoving over the x/r raise is the best play.
Top set facing river shove. Call? Quote

      
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