Why do you think it is an angle?

This is a funny discussion.

If you have two pair then you have two pair; it doesn't matter if one or both of the pairs is on the board.

I usually don't say anything either; I just think that if you do say something while turning them over, it should be to aide in people reading your hand faster. Saying "two pair" when the board is paired does not do that.

My objection has nothing to do with perceived angles or slowrolling. I will say that if you have the nut flush in a pot where there is a strong likelihood of there being more than one flush out there, you should declare your hand as that instead of simply "flush".

On this we agree, now that I've found the clip and watched it again.

Anyway I found the episode. (I mis-remembered some of the details.) Go to 28:00 for the start of the hand, or 29:45 for the river action. After the hand, Hellmuth and Viffer get into a debate about whether it was a slowroll or not. Hellmuth has even less cause for being irritated than I thought, because he can't even beat a T with a good kicker, and he's been calling down an amateur who raised him preflop and then bet strong the entire way. Although, Baxter had just bluffed off about 50k to durrrr a few hands ago, so Hellmuth may have thought Baxter was still steaming.



Edit: for those who enjoy watching Phil suffer, keep watching a little bit past that.

For a new, novice, fish, on-line player new to live play etc...... --->

So where is the perceived angle?

angle = creating an advantage, yes? Just want to be precise at what you are looking for since many here have stated they feel that saying "two pair" does not accurately describe your hand. Many, including during my first several forays into a casino, ALWAYS interpreted "two pair" as two from the hand.

Board AJ533

When you say 2P..... as a noob live player, I thought AJ, A5, J5. My 65 loses to all those. I could muck (haven't ever but....) if I was new to the game and didn't stop to analyze.

I played 2M hands online before the descriptive hand above. And not smoke and mirrors.... I honestly would believe that you matched both of your hole cards. If you can not see that people can have that thought process then we will never agree. It's OK...life goes on. But I would consider that getting a fold from a noob an angle.

My goodness two pair is two pair. It's an absolute hand strength to give people an indication of what they are up against. If the board is 559TJsss and I say two pair people immediately know that A5, 78 or a flush is good. It does make it easier for a noob to figure out if he is good except for the case that he also has two pair he now has to read the board. If that is ever an angle then whatever.

OK, you win.

Kelvis, this has been explained three separate times in this thread by separate posters. I'll give it one last shot.

On a board of AQ855, MANY people will consider a declared two pair to mean you have matched both of your hole cards to the community cards on the board. In other words, they expect you to show down with ONLY AQ, A8, or Q8.

If you declare two pair and show down with A4 KQ 98 etc. a good number of folks will think you're trying to shoot an angle, especially if you're slow to roll over your cards. The reason for this is that they think you're trying to fool the folks who think of a declared two pair as described in the previous paragraph (both hole cards matched to community cards) into mucking a superior hand. I have seen new players/inexperienced live players/even regs almost muck a hand like AJ to a declared two pair in this scenario.

The bottom line is that while you're technically correct that "two pair is two pair" there are a good number of players who think about it differently. You need to be prepared for those players to think you're angle shooting when you declare two pair and only one of those pair corresponds to a card in your hand.

And if I announce flush with the Ks on 3s4s8s9sTh?

This will not be seen as an angle. Why? Because a card in your hand fundamentally identifies a specific ranking. It very clearly allows anyone without a spade to safely muck.

But look, we're splitting hairs here. I understand that you do not see declaring two pair on a paired board an angle. I also understand why you feel this way, and I don't see it as a purposeful angle either. However, due to the way that a large section of players understand what two pair means, you WILL be considered to be angle shooting when you declare two pair on a paired board, especially if you hesitate at all to show your cards. And in fact, many players will hear "two pair" and be ready to muck any hand inferior to two paired hole cards. I've seen it almost happen several times, and it always elicits a few long looks at the guy who declared.

Just because you understand something one way and it is technically correct, doesn't mean that you can disregard how others in the population understand a similar situation. If you don't want to be seen as angle shooting, take my and others advice in this thread and either just roll over your cards, or name the card that matches the board. If you want to stand on the letter of the rules and don't care how you're viewed at the table, keep doing what you're doing. It's that simple.

When I say flush there are a lot of different spades. What if he has the 5th nut flush? Then I still haven't really said anything specific about my hand. It's the same for two pair, it very clearly allows someone without better than one pair to muck.

What if I announce trips on AA346? Then I'm using one card in my hand and allow 2 pair or worse to muck. Still if he has an ace it isn't clear who has the best hand. So is that an angle too? Just because two pair has a lot more possibilities it has to be with two cards?

I think the arguments for this possibly being an angle are horrible and wrong. Sure, if people give that meaning to it then who am I to change it. For what it is worth, I never announce my hand for various reasons. I don't care that much to give away information, if I do then it is when I was bluffing and I just muck. Villain might misread my hand and muck (and that is not to make him intentionally muck, that is all on him) and it takes longer for people to both listen to what I say and read the board. I just show my cards, if he has better then he can show or not show for all I care. In the ends cards speak anyways so I think it is the quickest and most fair way to showdown. I just find it ridiculous that people might actually be offended when someone announces two pair the "wrong" way, it's just laughable.

Another clip where the pros educate an amateur on the etiquette of declaring on a paired board. It's at 8:15. Or go about a minute earlier to see how not to play AA.

Similarly, I never describe my hand as "two pair" unless I actually paired both hole cards.

I notice that when the dealers call the hand values, they seem to call it two pairs if that's what the 5 card hand is and I think that's probably the best way for them to do it.

The only thing this shows is a bunch of whiny pros and an amateur who doesn't really care about how two pair should be declared. Seems like the only people on tilt are some douchebags and the amateur seems perfectly fine if someone does it.

Shows a pretty nice pair in a black dress as well, K