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Timing tells Timing tells

04-25-2017 , 10:51 AM
Good day, my fellow poker buddy's, today I have a question in relation to timing tells online.
The reason I pose this question is simple, I was recently owned by a player on stars, and I believe it's because I placed to much emphasis in his call/raise/fold speed.

So here is the scenario:

I was playing the big 11 $40k GTD on stars, as I do most days, I use software namely poker tracker 4, it was a few hours in and so we had just made the money, when I moved tables.

Immediately I notice a player I have 320 hands with, with a VPIP of 40% and a 3B of 16% and he has a stack of 55,000 with blinds at 1000/2000 (200)

On my second hand at the table I'm utg and pick up the beautiful ladies QQ villain is on the button, I have a stack of 76k, I elect to make it 6.5k I choose this sizing because I was fairly sure I could get a call from the button but was also aware that I would be out of position and didn't want to offer the blinds good odds to call when the button does call.

It folds round to the button who quickly calls, almost as if he had the check/call box already marked, both the blinds fold!
I read this as quite a wide range as he is very rarely 3betting at only 16%out of 320 hands so I assume that 16% would be his premium hands as he has a VPIP of 40% I quite confident he is playing a wide range of hands in this spot, playing against a tighter player here I wouldn't place too much emphasis on his timing here but I just felt it was important.

Anyway the flop comes 96J this I feel is a good flop for me as most of his marginal hands preflop will have a little piece of this and can continue, allowing me to size my Cbets bigger than usual.

There is 17.8k in the pot and and villain has 49k behind I decide to make it 10k to continue and set up a shove with good turn cards, I expect villain to have hands like KJ with the K of hearts, Q10 with a heart although we do block the straight draws, he can have hands like 78 suited that will call flop A9 with the A of hearts etc, again he snap calls, I start to think of hands that would snap call 10k out of 49k stack leaving back a pot sized bet? It's at this point I start to level my self, although I'm fairly sure he is either drawing or has maybe top pair because surely on this board with a hands like sets and 2 pairs you would be looking to jam, right? Or am I wrong? Any way that's how I seen it, I convinced myself he was on some form of a draw, and mainly because I have the qq I ruled out some straight draws but the quickness in his pre and post flop calls lead me to believe he had some form of suited connectors.

The turn brought 5 probably the worst card in the deck for me, and after levelling my self on the flop, I really don't like this card, I think about double barrelled shoving, but really don't think this is a +ev line to take here and if I lead for say half pot and he jams I will have to call but I don't really like it, also if I check there is a huge posibbility he will shove bluff on this card as it's fairly obvious I haven't got the flush if I had the Q I'd be more comfy check calling but since I don't I'm fairly unsure what to do here. I decide to check and villain shoves all in instantly I go into the tank and decide to fold, however I'm unsure of how much of a mess I made of this hand in paying so much attention to his timings

All feed back will be amazing, and if there was a more optimal way for me to play this I would very open to hearing and adding that into my game

Thanks for reading guys.
Ps sorry if I made any typing errors

Last edited by HoodedDonkey; 04-25-2017 at 11:02 AM.
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04-25-2017 , 11:14 AM
my $.02 here, the guy could be doing anything behind his computer, I wouldn't read too much into timing tells, unless, eventually, if I knew for sure the player was 100% onboard.
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04-25-2017 , 11:50 AM
Yeah I always think that aswel, but I check and he wasn't multi tabling, if it was early on most people auto pilot play, well most new players / weak players but being so deep in with the des ions meaning so much I though he might take more time over trivial potentially tournament ending descsions
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04-25-2017 , 12:37 PM
Is there anyone in the world that actually uses the "call any" checkbox when they are on the button?

Check(-call) the flop. That board is so good for villain's range that I think your hand plays best as a pot-controlling bluff-catcher, because you're getting floated very often if you c-bet, and there are plenty of horrible turn cards.
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04-25-2017 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
Is there anyone in the world that actually uses the "call any" checkbox when they are on the button?

Check(-call) the flop. That board is so good for villain's range that I think your hand plays best as a pot-controlling bluff-catcher, because you're getting floated very often if you c-bet, and there are plenty of horrible turn cards.
I ask my self that question all the time.
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04-25-2017 , 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
Is there anyone in the world that actually uses the "call any" checkbox when they are on the button?

Check(-call) the flop. That board is so good for villain's range that I think your hand plays best as a pot-controlling bluff-catcher, because you're getting floated very often if you c-bet, and there are plenty of horrible turn cards.
So you say I should check call the flop, and check fold in bad turn cards? Am I thinking about the hand correctly or am I making costly mistakes in my thinking process
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04-26-2017 , 01:32 PM
You're usually calling on the turn too, and often the river as well. It depends what the runout is and how big villain bets. On some runouts you have much better hands to continue with, but there is also a high likelihood that villain shuts down after betting once. The general idea is that you don't want to risk playing a huge pot OOP (let alone getting bluffed off the best hand after building a big pot), and check-calling should usually mean you keep villain's range wide/weak and you're more likely to win at showdown if only 2 bets (calls) go in. It's pretty close, but I think QQ realizes more equity/EV by checking on a flop like that.
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04-26-2017 , 03:59 PM
Yeah that makes sense, I'm just very aware of the possibility of giving a free turn card on such a draw heavy board if I never had 2 queens I may of checked but as I block most good straights and no flushes I decide to charge a some what loose player a fee to come along with his draws which I know he will, I also feel like I get a call of a lot of 9s and Js, I guess what your trying to say is for balance I should sometimes check sometimes bet??
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04-27-2017 , 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoodedDonkey
I'm just very aware of the possibility of giving a free turn card on such a draw heavy board
If you were clairvoyant and could see that villain had a draw and the board would brick out, you'd want to bet for value and get called, but you don't have that power. I think villain is fairly unlikely to check back with a draw, he's nearly always going to bet it (to try and get you off the AK he puts you on when you check), so - when he has a draw - you get almost as much value by checking to him as by betting (it depends if he barrels with a draw, or gives up). He's also somewhat likely to bet some really bad hands that would insta-fold if you bet, and this means that checking is perhaps more profitable than betting.
It's pretty close though. You could bet or check. I'd always check though. In today's games, I find villains play worse against checks than against bets, and I'm confident about playing with wide ranges on the later streets in smaller pots (I really hate going bet-bet and then not knowing what to do on the river), but it kind of depends how loose/stationy (or the opposite aggro/spewy) your opponent is.
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04-27-2017 , 08:19 AM
Quote:
but you don't have that power.
Word.

I don't put much stock into timing tells.
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05-01-2017 , 06:39 AM
thanks for the feed back its clear i made a few errors on certain streets although its close between descions.

but as played was my check fold on the turn correct given the turn card. or should i be calling because a decent percentage of his hands here will be bluffs and one pair hands that i beat.
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05-01-2017 , 10:24 AM
Yes, you can fold. You have better hands to continue with, many of which contain a heart.
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05-01-2017 , 09:48 PM
just import the hand next time. Way tldr
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