You have no idea how hard it is for me not to troll your post. I think I pulled a muscle. In any event, since you are in the beginner question forum I'll give you a pass and attempt to answer your post in a helpful manner.
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Originally Posted by juggle5344
So, how do people actually win online? .
By being better than their opponents.
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Originally Posted by juggle5344
So, how do people actually win online?
I have read books, I have even independently scrutinized the math and I actually understand it, I have played hundreds and hundreds of hands.
I want to stop right here and comment on this. Hundreds of hands "online" means almost nothing. To put this into perspective. When I played online, I grinded 10 tables at a time (and that is considered a bit weak, serious volume grinders do 12 - 24 tables and the truly sickos do up to 32 tables).
So, 10 tables at about 60 hands/hr means that I'm playing roughly 600 hands per hour. So, you being upset that over "hundreds and hundreds" of hands you can't beat the rake is equivalent to someone who is learning chess and has made "dozens and dozens" of moves is made because they can't beat the computer on the lowest setting...
Basically, you are not even wet behind the ears yet!!! You are still in the womb. That is how noob you are.
It takes about 25,000 hands to have any real degree of confidence on your abilities/winrate. And your winrate will be constantly changing as you continue to learn and probably won't stabilize until you have a couple of MILLION hands under your belt.
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Originally Posted by juggle5344
... but I am still about dead even with rake. It seems like theory goes out the window when you are playing actual games and it really all comes down to beating up on fish. Is this really what it's all about? If that is so, I'm not sure I even want to continue playing the game.
Lets come back to chess. Is becoming a winning chess player all about "beating up on the fish/clueless chess players?"
No.
Its about being better than your villain. The problem I sense you are having is a problem all noobs have, that is, you don't truly understand how complex poker is.
I don't want to start a chess vs poker debate (I was a serious chess player once upon a time). But I think chess is a great model to use to try to explain how complex/hard poker is.
How much time have you spent studying and playing poker? If you spent that same amount of time studying and playing chess, would you be a high rated chess player?
It not only takes serious study to become a great chess player, it requires aptitude, talent, hard work, discipline, patience, mental fortitude, and a boat load of hours spent playing, analyzing your play, studying different moves, etc etc.
Same thing with poker.
What makes poker so complex is that human memory, ego, perception, etc can work together to give the noob a false understanding of poker. The noob thinks he has the game all figured out simply because he read a book, a few articles, and crushed the game for 500bb three times last week... But then, the next week, he loses his ass and concludes that the game is just nothing but luck...
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Originally Posted by juggle5344
......For instance, ICM goes out the window if the other players aren't actually acting in their best interest. It works in 2-player but not always in multi-player. Particularly in double-up, the chip bully can just call with anything if he feels like being an a-hole, and his bad move is actually bad for both of you in some such situations.
This belays a staggering amount of ignorance and wrongness on your part. The above is so laughable incorrect it hurts my brain just reading it. I could literally write a book about the above paragraph pointing out all the instances where it is beyond wrong.
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Originally Posted by juggle5344
......So, what games should I play if I actually want to WIN without having to resort to too many slimy tactics. I just want to play straight poker. But it seems like even the mini-stakes (4.60 and lower) games are filled with people who know what they are doing. Any advice appreciated.
There is a famous saying that applies to you, "If you have been playing at the table for 30 minutes and can't spot the sucker... then its you..."
When you become a winning player then any and all games will look juicy to you. When you are the biggest shark at the table then all your opponents look like fish.
I know you think you are smart and awesome and can walk on water, eat fire and crap ice cream... but the reality is you just aren't near as good and competent as you think you are.
You don't respect nor understand just how complex poker is. I mean, if you could master the game after reading a couple of books and learning how to do basic pot odds calculations then everyone would be a winning player right?