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suited aces suited aces

08-03-2015 , 12:13 AM
I'm sure I'm going to hear the ubiquitous "it depends", but I have heard people suggest that A8s down to A2s should not be played unless the players are loose.

Another book I read said to treat these as unsuited until you see the flop.

What is a good policy regarding suited aces with average players? (Obviously, AKs to A9s probably should be played).
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08-03-2015 , 12:22 AM
I can 3 bet A2s-A5s. I can iso raise A6s+. Or I can simply overlimp. Just depends how aggro the table will let you be with them. The ONLY common denominator is that all should be done in CO or BTN.
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08-03-2015 , 12:27 AM
Limit or NL? Size of table? "Average players" at what stakes?

"Should not be played" is wrong, for instance folding A8s on the button when not facing a raise would be crazy. Forget what you've heard, think about it from scratch -- under what conditions would suited ace-rag be good to play, and why?
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08-03-2015 , 12:57 AM
It depends.

They're kind of a tricky hand, because when you hit, you mostly hit an A-high flop and you are outkicked by just about any other A someone else is holding.

That doesn't mean you auto-fold them either.

They're good enough to open from CO or BTN in most situations, earlier in some.

They make good 3-bet bluff hands, because of card removal and because they play well against non-A hands (which you block) and because you can flop the nuts and you can barrel draws.

You can also overcall or overlimp in position if you're playing a bunch of passive fish and are going to see a multiway pot. You get great implied odds and if you do hit your flush, you have a good chance of stacking someone because it's the nut flush.
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08-03-2015 , 02:10 AM
as i'm not to experienced I like to just call and see flop. don't want to put myself in awkward spots
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08-03-2015 , 02:22 AM
Against a full table, you don't play suited aces to make top pair. You play them to make the nut flush. Heads up, you might play them for top card.
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08-03-2015 , 09:27 AM
At 6-max, I open all of them under the gun, but I would not recommend that beginners do this, as beginners tend to be very bad at playing marginal hands OOP.
If you're facing a raise, then ATs+ and A5s-A2s can be 3-bet or called depending on the situation (I wouldn't flat A5s in MP vs UTG, for example, as there are still a few players yet to act, but would often 3-bet in SB vs BUT). A9s-A6s tend to be trickier to play when facing a raise, so your VPIP with those could be a little lower.

Offsuit aces are much worse hands, so you should treat anything worse than AJo as rags and only play them infrequently (e.g. in LP/Blind battles).
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08-03-2015 , 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
At 6-max, I open all of them under the gun, but I would not recommend that beginners do this, as beginners tend to be very bad at playing marginal hands OOP.
If you're facing a raise, then ATs+ and A5s-A2s can be 3-bet or called depending on the situation (I wouldn't flat A5s in MP vs UTG, for example, as there are still a few players yet to act, but would often 3-bet in SB vs BUT). A9s-A6s tend to be trickier to play when facing a raise, so your VPIP with those could be a little lower.

Offsuit aces are much worse hands, so you should treat anything worse than AJo as rags and only play them infrequently (e.g. in LP/Blind battles).
Pre flop don't suited cards only increase your % by 4?
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08-03-2015 , 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by WilTurkey56
Pre flop don't suited cards only increase your % by 4?
It's not the 4%, it's what happens in that 4%. You get the nuts, with a chance to get all of the other guy's stack.

If you have AK vs. AQ on a board of AJ853, you're probably not going to get all of AQ's chips because he knows his kicker can be beat.

But if you have Axs vs. Kxs on a flush board, you have a much better chance at stacking, because a non-nut flush is a lot harder for people to get away from than a mediocre kicker.

Also, you don't have to hit your flush to win. You can almost be as aggressive with the nut flush draw as you would with a made hand. If you think you've got even a smidgen of fold equity, you're golden.
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08-03-2015 , 10:44 AM
Your implied odds are much much higher with suited aces than with off-suited ones.
All the money can easily go in with 3 flush cards. When there's 4 flush board it's much harder to get paid.

My thought process with suited aces is to always get involved in the pot.
Against regulars I look more at the pot odds. Like I would rarely overcall in the SB.
With fish in the pot I call lighter. Imagine you are the SB entering a multiway pot. Fish is in the BB, who will call any suited hand. Especially when deep this is a dream scenario, although flush over flush won't happen very frequently
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08-04-2015 , 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crow27
I can 3 bet A2s-A5s. I can iso raise A6s+. Or I can simply overlimp. Just depends how aggro the table will let you be with them. The ONLY common denominator is that all should be done in CO or BTN.
Yeah I'm starting to go this direction and only playing suited ace rag from CO or BTN. I love the idea of 3 betting with A2s-A5s and iso'ing with A6s+. What are your guys' thoughts on doing this at micros? May just be lighting money on fire since 3 suit boards seem to scare the fish away. Still trying to figure out if SCs and suited aces can be reasonably profitable at micros since the play is so straightforward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoTheMath
Against a full table, you don't play suited aces to make top pair. You play them to make the nut flush. Heads up, you might play them for top card.
Yeah if I have A5s and flop is A82 rainbow I'm playing for pot control and folding if I face a lot of aggression. Hands like these I think of the same as SCs...speculative hands like 22-66 that you want to see a flop for cheap with but the hand is totally worthless unless the flop connects well.
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08-04-2015 , 10:01 AM
Quote:
Yeah I'm starting to go this direction and only playing suited ace rag from CO or BTN. I love the idea of 3 betting with A2s-A5s and iso'ing with A6s+. What are your guys' thoughts on doing this at micros? May just be lighting money on fire since 3 suit boards seem to scare the fish away. Still trying to figure out if SCs and suited aces can be reasonably profitable at micros since the play is so straightforward.
The main thing I learned from playing these is that you have to be able to take a bet/fold line when a V plays back at you.

On a side note, I really only ISO A6s+ when there are 1 or 2 limpers. If there are 3+limpers, I just over limp.

On the small suited A's, I reserve the 3 bet for either a V that is opening too wide given his position, or a late position raiser, where their range is almost always too wide to defend against a 3 bet. Other than that, it's just an over limp or fold.
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