ok this is in now way meant to teach or give advice as limit ain't my cup of tea and honestly i'm not even playing it make money right now more to experiment and learn. I'm not even sure if i'm a winning player playing as i currently do but my goal is to learn from my mistakes. Hell i might even be the worst limit poker player on earth but that doesn't mean i can't make observations. Anyway i just wanted to make it clear that i'm in no way trying to give advice less someone rip me for trying to tell others how to play. Also only 20k hands but i will update every 5-10k hands. Oh and this doesn't take into account opponents hud stats.

First observation

In a hu to 4 way pot it seems that you should always bet the flop after raising pre. Even if you have no pair no draw. So far i've c-bet with 5 or less people on the flop with no pair no draw 510 times. On these hands i've lost 77.7xbb/100 Which is horrible but if you raise pre then check fold flop you lose -200xbb/100.

For now i will continue alternating between checking and c-betting trash on the flop and see how it goes. when i get atleast 1k hands for each sample i will add position to the filter.

Also i'm gonna start calling more often with middle pair and weak tp type hands on the flop and see how that does versus betting out.

nevermind i'm a donkey

cbetting in hu is waaaaaaay different to 4 way.

Cbetting in 4 way pots when you dont flop anything is (ignoring meta game etc) lighting money on fire because too often you get called in at least one or two spots. Then what ya gonna do?

It is less terrible with position (generally)

And yes I've played lots on micro limit hold thems

well my post was for 5 or less but if i filter for 5-4 on the flop with all other criteria being the same the sample size becomes so small as to be insignificant. As far as metagame i'm not sure that applies. Random micro peep says hey this guy likes to triple barrel with unmade hands The fact is they call king high and worse regardless and certaintly can't be bothered to worry if i'm betting light.

As far as what i do when i'm called well it depends but this thread is not to teach. it's simply to try different stuff and report back on the results.

If you are playing lots of multi way pots, I think you should be playign all pairs and suited connectors, suited 1 and 2 gappers, stuff that can hit the flop REALLY hard. If you miss, check/fold when you are up against 3 or more players as one of them probably hit it.

explain metagame?

Its like this... If I know you're a Scissor fetishist, you're likely to play Scissors somewhat more than 33% of the time, thus I should throw Rock against you more than 33% of the time, because I win more that way. However, if you're aware that I'm aware you like Scissors, you would never throw Scissors against me and would play Paper more often than Rock, because Paper expects a net win against my range of predominantly Rock. But if I'm aware you're aware that I know you like Scissors, I'll start throwing Scissors to cut up your Paper strategy.



To translate to a poker scenario, if you KNOW that your opponent will only ever check-raise the flop with a set, you should only ever continue after his check raise with top set, because otherwise your equity isn't enough to beat the rake.
However, if your opponent knows you know this, he'll start bluff check-raising you on flops that are likely to give him a set but unlikely to give you a redraw to a flush or straight, like T53 rainbow.
But, since you know all of the above, you'll be calling his check-raises when you have a flush or open ended straight draw, with the idea of barrelling any sort of favorable turn card. And so on.

A scissor fetishist would surely throw paper because they'd want to see you throw scissors. They can just throw scissors on their own at home - and there's not as much fun in that, right?

Heads up, you should be c-betting up to about 80% of flops, if you were the pre-flop raiser, whether you hit or miss. Certain flops that missed you completely, but are likely to have hit the villain's calling range hard, can be check-folded, if you reason that your equity is so low that peeling off a card is not profitable. When you hit big, sometimes checking and going for the check-raise is the best plan. Flop texture and villain's tendencies should be used in the decision-making process.
Multiway, you should play much more straightforwardly. A c-bet with air/overcards is a bluff. Bluffing in multiway pots is burning money. If you're out of position and in a multiway pot, checking is often the best move. Sometimes, it's even the best move if you hit the flop hard, as letting someone else bet first gives you information, and then you can come over the top, or flat-call and trap them with your monster.

I think as a scissor fetishist, playing Rock Paper Scissors HU, I would throw paper about 100% of the time for this very reason.

Edward Scissorhands is the exception tho, fairly predictable and can be exploited with rock imo.

But the metagame is pretty intense, he thinks 1 level above most opponents, plays on your natural fear of sharp objects, and can be very intimidating

also for what it's worth the average hand for calling your c-bet and c-raising the turn is a set. Sometimes they have better and they've also had air like 5 percent of the time but on average for my experience it's a set. So when they pull that play on me i say hey buddy you've got a set or better like 95 percent of the time and go from there.

dude, no offence, I know its just an observation you are making as you say in your OP but can you back this up with stats by using a filter or something in hem/pt3 to make me a believer?

See Ive played hundred of thousands of limit holdem (probably close to a million) anywhere from 2c/4c upwards and anecdotally I can confidently say that I disagree with you even if its true for your sample. Funnily enough at the nanos you see people do stupid things because they are stupid and at the small/mid stakes people can play the same hand the same way but for entirely different reasons and it might even be correct if they've got a good read and if they know I have a fold button or a 'call down light being I know they are a lagtard' mentality. it depends.

basically there is too much generalisation and I simply don't think its a case of one size fits all.

don't get me wrong. I like it when limit holdem is discussed in beginners (I also mod microsteakslimit and trust me, you'd probably cop alot of flack if you posted this same generalisation there) but broad sweeping statements like "95% of the time they have a set here" can be dangerous which is why Im commenting on it.

edit: if what you say is true in your experience, then what are you doing to exploit it?

anyway, enough of me being pedantic. feel free to wonder on over to microstakeslimit. how are your results so far? feel free to post your results and stats so far. Im a bit rusty on my limi holdem but I'll be happy to take a look at them for you.

no need to be harsh i already said this was just my personal observation and i'm not trying to teach anyone anything. So sure my observation may change after i get to 1 billion hands but right now it is what it is.

oh and i do appreciate the offer

ok played a 1000 hands give or take a couple hands in the last 24 hours. And blindly c-betting the flop with air has won me 1.67xbb/100 over a sample of 127 hands. Doing the same with 3 on the flop shows a loss of 57xbb/100. show just adding 1 player makes a huge negative impact when it comes to c-betting with air. I haven't done 4 o5 yet.

I agree with ArtySmokes, that flop texture is important.

C-betting with air on 852 is different to c-betting with air on QT8 (to put it mildly).

Plenty of good strat threads in limit forums about c-betting.

Good Luck

of course flop texture is important but my db is to small to filter for flop texture.

oh and if i filter for 5 or more my sample size becomes real tiny. one thing i will say and i got this off a vid but i think it helps. When bluffing in limit poker how have to think about future streets. The way it was explained is you sorta have to assume you will have to fire 3 barrels. So say you are playing 2c/4c and the pot has 10 cents on the flop. Well you are getting 5-1 on a bluff. Not bad but that's not the end of it. We assume that 3 barrels will be needed. So we have to spend 2+4+4 or 10 cents. The vill also has to spend the same to call. So on the river the pot will be 30 cents. We spent 10 so that's 3-1 not as good as 5-1 but according to the author it's not even that good. As only 20 cents will be profit so we are actually only getting 2-1. Anyway that's the way the author said you should think about things when you plan to go after a pot. You can't fire one barrel and hope the fold.

oh would you guys say monotone flops are good or bad to bluff at? I know 2 tone is worse then rainbow and a flop like JT9 2 tone is just about the worse but all other things being equal is a monotone flop a good or bad flop to bluff at? From my experience at nl it's a great flop to bluff just not sure about limit.

Heads up it is a fantastic flop to bluff at in LHE as well.

Heads up, definitely.
Multiway, definitely not.

It helps to have position and some sort of connection with the board, even bottom pair, or a backdoor straight, as plenty of villains won't give you credit for the flush, and may have a decent draw of their own.

It doesn't matter if they give you credit for a flush, if they don't have one of that suit themselves it makes it very hard for them to continue.

Multiway the trouble is you are guaranteed that someone has a flush draw of some kind (if not already a made flush) so you have no chance of getting everyone to fold until at least the river.

In NL I have a lot of success bluffing monotone flops multiway. Just bet small (a suspicious looking bet around half pot or less) and you don't need to succeed very often to get a profit. People tend to fold if they don't have the ace of the suit, as they risk facing a large bet on the turn and the river.

In limit, anyone with a high card to a flush draw is getting a good price to call in a multiway pot, so the bluff won't succeed often enough.

Oh and at least so far i make more money per 100 hands with connectors when it is raised infront of me. I never really play them outside multiway pots but when you comare calling a couple limpers to flatting say a raise and a caller the latter is much better so far. ThAt mAy sound odd but in limped pots it's hard to win much when you hit. In a raised pot People are much more agro and will go ape **** with big pairs when you hit .