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| Beginners Questions Poker beginner ?
Ask your (possibly) naive question here and our community will attempt to help you. |
07-10-2012, 05:37 PM
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#31
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veteran
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Polarizing my folding range
Posts: 3,498
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcoho
did i do this right?
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It's less true - the more recent hands weren't abortions on the same scale that the first few were.
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07-10-2012, 06:26 PM
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#32
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enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 52
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Well I've never been on a heater before, so i'm happy to be so! I'd at least like to think i'm a more resilient fish since before I posted though :P
Another smaller one.
PokerStars - $0.05 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
MP+1: $6.54
LP: $5.00
CO: $1.60
BTN: $9.91
Hero (SB): $4.95
BB: $5.00
UTG: $12.11
UTG+1: $3.35
MP: $2.00
Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 2  2
fold, fold, fold, fold, LP raises to $0.15, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.13, fold
Flop: ($0.35, 2 players) 2  8  5
Hero checks, LP bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25
Turn: ($0.85, 2 players) J
Hero bets $0.55, fold
Hero wins $0.81
Since I flopped a set and the villain was completely unknown, I figured c/c would be my best option on the flop. After that however I was completely lost as to how to play it.
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07-10-2012, 06:39 PM
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#33
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banned
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,974
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Re: Struggling at nanos
You want to play for stacks with a set and to do that in a non-3bet pot you need to get a raise in on one of the streets.
Try and make it the flop if it looks good for the villain or if the flop is wet. You can also make it the turn, this has the advantage of committing the villain more with overpairs/TPTK hands but the disadvantage of letting them draw to flushes and straights and also turn raises are often monsters so it can frighten your villain more than a flop raise.
Try not to make it the river like so many 2NL noobs (check-check-OMG SHOVE RIVER!) except on special, unusual cases e.g. the villain is a psycho who will barrell 3 streets with air but tends to fold to raises - that way by the time the river comes around he will be committed.
I would probably x/r the flop because many 2NL villains have problems laying down 99+ there. x/c is OK too if you plan to x/r the turn. As played I would x/r the turn instead of leading.
As you see, it's harder to extract value out of position...also as he folded to your turn bet, he missed the flop and you were not going to get much more from him anyway.
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07-10-2012, 06:42 PM
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#34
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 5,388
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blokearot
Since I flopped a set and the villain was completely unknown, I figured c/c would be my best option on the flop. After that however I was completely lost as to how to play it.
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Check-calling the flop is great, but then the standard play is check-raise the turn, not donk.
Donking looks super-strong and gives villain an excuse to fold, especially on this rainbow board. You want him to bet again (a turn c-bet). Sometimes he'll choose to check behind on the turn, so you have to lead out on safe rivers, but don't scare him off by donking the turn.
Donk bets like this would explain why your red line is above zero while your showdown winnings are not. You're losing value by basically telling other players "I have a hand". If you just called pre-flop and are out of position, maximise value by trapping opponents, and come over the top with the check-raise hammer blow.
In real money terms, if you'd checked the turn, villain might have contributed 50-55c to the pot, and then folded to your raise. Because you led out, he got away free of charge.
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07-10-2012, 07:03 PM
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#35
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enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 52
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Re: Struggling at nanos
I see what you both are saying, but that made me think. On a relatively dry board like this that I flopped a set on I would be perfectly happy to slow play as you say (if i'm correctly assigning the terms here). Would this be the same on a wet board though? How frightened of draws should I actually be?
Also since this heater i'm on is so darn beautiful its just given me another hand which I played as you guys suggested and it really paid off!
CO: $9.80
BTN: $6.67
SB: $4.23
BB: $5.00
UTG: $3.12
UTG+1: $1.88
Hero (MP): $4.88
MP+1: $3.00
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 4  4
fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.20, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.20, SB calls $0.18, fold
Flop: ($0.65, 3 players) 4  K  A
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.49, SB calls $0.49, Hero calls $0.49
Turn: ($2.12, 3 players) 2
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $1.62, SB calls $1.62, Hero raises to $4.19 and is all-in, BTN calls $2.57, SB calls $1.92 and is all-in
River: ($14.04, 3 players) 2
Hero shows 4  4  (Full House, Fours full of Twos) (Pre 40%, Flop 86%, Turn 93%)
BTN mucks 8  K  (Two Pair, Kings and Twos) (Pre 24%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
SB mucks A  K  (Two Pair, Aces and Kings) (Pre 35%, Flop 13%, Turn 7%)
Hero wins $13.46
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07-10-2012, 07:12 PM
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#36
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banned
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,974
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Set of 4's hand I would look at how aggro the villains are and unless they are aggro and I can trust them to bet I would lead the flop. Other than that, I would do the same.
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07-11-2012, 12:56 AM
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#37
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grinder
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 596
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Re: Struggling at nanos
ur too aggressive when u dont have the best hand,for some reason u seem bent on pushing people off hands.
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07-11-2012, 01:14 AM
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#38
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grinder
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 451
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Everytime I read the OP title I read: Struggling at Nandos
...I want chicken.
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07-11-2012, 01:47 AM
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#39
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: the water they carried
Posts: 4,048
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blokearot
First i'll give an overview of my brief poker story. So I started around 2 weeks ago playing 0.01/0.02 NLHE. I have been learning as I've been going since I was not too fussed about losing my small bankroll and just enjoy the game generally. I've been slowly reading through the CoTW posts, scouring the archives and just generally digesting information. I pulled it back from around $15 down to about $5 down but have since been really struggling.
Having read up on posts for a good 20 hours and having played 10000 hands, I moved up to 0.02/0.05 figuring the two are unlikely to be much different and I have around 25 buyins for the 0.05 for good BRM.
At times my EV has popped up to $3, and my money won without showdown has hit $8 up, but the money won when i've been to showdown has consistently remained at least -$10 and as of posting hit $-39 with my amount won at -$31.
How can I improve? Reading more and more seems to just be slowly pushing me further and further down as perhaps I am misapplying concepts and so on. I'm finding hand reading extremely difficult even with Pokey's excellent post on the matter.
For information my overall stats on PT3 are 13.81/11.60 and my AFq is usually high (50+) and i'm -4.31 BB per 100 hands.
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at the stage you're at right now, it's all about playing hands. studying is okay, and will certainly help your game down the line, but the best thing you can do right now is play as many hands as you can.
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07-11-2012, 01:50 AM
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#40
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The Situation
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: See PG&C Thread. @IsoAcq
Posts: 7,842
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toogood32
Everytime I read the OP title I read: Struggling at Nandos
...I want chicken.
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+1billion
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07-11-2012, 05:45 PM
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#41
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 5,388
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blokearot
I see what you both are saying, but that made me think. On a relatively dry board like this that I flopped a set on I would be perfectly happy to slow play as you say (if i'm correctly assigning the terms here). Would this be the same on a wet board though? How frightened of draws should I actually be?
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Flopped sets should be your bread and butter in the micros (accounting for as much as 80% of your total profit), so it pays to work out the best of playing them.
Generally, you raise the flop with them in position, and check-raise with them when out of position. If the board is a rainbow with no ace or obvious straight draw, then calling the flop (slowplaying) is fine, preparing for a raise on the turn.
If the flop contains an ace, two cards of the same suit (very common), or 3 cards that are fairly connected (e.g. J 8 6), then start raising on the flop. Ace flops are good to raise, because villain will often have one. It's very satisfying to stack off with a set of 3s vs TPTK and know you have about 97% equity. 
The basic rule is: bet to protect your hand on wet boards (while getting value from draws that will often miss), and to build a big pot or Axx flops. Sometimes villain will call the raise and suck out, but in the long run you'll make huge profits by raising with flopped sets, as micro players are so reluctant to fold top pair or flush draws, both of which are big underdogs in the hand. If you managed to get all in by the turn every time you flopped a set (which should be your aim), you'd could buy a house in Valuetown.
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07-13-2012, 01:26 PM
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#42
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enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 52
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Re: Struggling at nanos
So I have been absolutely destroyed today, -$39. Could not seem to catch a break, the following hand pretty much epitomises the day.
PokerStars - $0.05 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
MP: $4.93
MP+1: $6.42
CO: $6.97
BTN: $17.75
SB: $5.00
Hero (BB): $12.65
UTG: $5.73
UTG+1: $6.32
SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 8  9
fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $0.15, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.10
Flop: ($0.32, 2 players) 9  9  8
Hero checks, CO bets $0.23, Hero calls $0.23
Turn: ($0.78, 2 players) 6
Hero checks, CO checks
River: ($0.78, 2 players) T
Hero bets $0.50, CO raises to $2.10, Hero raises to $12.27 and is all-in, CO calls $4.49 and is all-in
Hero shows 8  9  (Full House, Nines full of Eights) (Pre 18%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
CO shows T  T  (Full House, Tens full of Nines) (Pre 82%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
CO wins $13.38
I put him on a flush draw, a straight draw or a set as he was a 9/8 nit over 75 hands.
But anyway, my real reason for the rant is where do you go from this? I would estimate I lost around $10 from poor play, $10 from tilt, and $20 from cooler but its completely sucked out my desire to play the game.
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07-13-2012, 02:15 PM
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#43
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journeyman
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 258
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Re: Struggling at nanos
The hand above is completely standard. You got it in with the best hand and lost to a two outer. That was definitely +EV so don't punish yourself for that. That's why BRM is important. You should be willing to make that play as many times as you can.
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07-13-2012, 03:29 PM
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#44
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adept
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Internet Poker Hell
Posts: 1,195
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Re: Struggling at nanos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzle
The hand above is completely standard. You got it in with the best hand and lost to a two outer. That was definitely +EV so don't punish yourself for that. That's why BRM is important. You should be willing to make that play as many times as you can.
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I disagree. Although OP is coolered here, we need to play the hand much faster, the board is very wet and we need to start gettin it in way earlier if we expect to felt villains.
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07-13-2012, 05:06 PM
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#45
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journeyman
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 388
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Re: Struggling at nanos
You seem to be trying to disguise your good hands too often. When you flop a strong hand or a strong draw, it's almost always the correct play to raise or reraise, especially when you think there's a strong chance you have the best hand or a very good chance of hitting a draw that will give you the best hand. I highly doubt anyone with a TT would have been willing to stand an oversize reraise - say maybe 1.25x the pot, on the flop with an easy full house and an obvious flush, straight, or both draw on the board. Basically, by trying to disguise your strong hands, you're giving your opponents the opportunity to cheaply draw out on you because you're giving them amazing odds. You're letting them control the pot, so they're always going to get the price they want. This doesn't mean always blow them out of the water, but when you flop a set it's almost always going to be incorrect to slowplay the hand. You just can't give the villain good odds for his draw.
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