PokerStars - $0.10 NL ZOOM - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $10.00
SB: $10.00
BB: $4.35
UTG: $4.75
UTG+1: $21.61
UTG+2: $9.85
MP: $9.48
Hero (MP+1): $9.70
CO: $6.24

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has J J

fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.30, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.90, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG+1 calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95, 2 players) 4 7 2
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1.20, UTG+1 calls $1.20

Turn: ($4.35, 2 players) T
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $2.00, UTG+1 raises to $8.00, Hero calls $5.60 and is all-in

What range do you think he has there ? I guess he maybe can have AhTh etc, otherwise do you think he ships the turn with 99 or worse ?

On my phone so I can't stove it, but it looks like you're crushed by his shoving range.

edit: Its best not to include results, you'll get better advice that way !

Before he shipped I was was putting him on a heart draw.

To be brutally honest, I don't think I re-evaluated after the shove and called too quickly.....

Thanks for the tip, amended ;-)

EDIT:
cant change the thread title though, oh well....

I can ...!

Didn't see the result before you edited it but it smells like a set to me or maybe KK /AA shoving to protect from the FDs. Tough one to lay down with out any stats on V but i think were toast.

Thanks!


Rather than replying to everyone I'll hang on for a while to gauge the consensus - hope you don't mind!

I do not know but it seems like he could have a set. Anyways, it was just to big of a raise to be calling with just an overpair like JJ so I would fold.

Do you have any stats on this guy? With no reads or stats, I can probably find a fold here. If I had to put villain on only one hand, it would be TT. AhXh, and sets are likely to raise this flop. The only hand I can think of that would just call a 3bet pre-flop, make a scared call on the flop, and CR the turn is TT. Anyway, it smells like a set. I think I can fold.

No stats, never played against him before. Plus it was zoom so was actually the first hand against him.

it u were button vs cutoff or something u could probably make this call readless, but UTG+1 range consists of more overpairs and your hand is more overrepped so it's a fold.

I would put him on TT,77 or AThh. vs that range we are crushed so best off folding. 3betting an unknown EP raiser with JJ is probably not the best line. If he 4bets we are in an awful situation and if he flats like he did we still aren't in great shape. Best off flatting and playing poker from there vs a wider range IMO.

Flat pre. 3 betting this requires a good reason which you dont have.

Btw, this spot shows exactly why 3betting JJ vs an EP unknown is suicide. You end up OTT with that sinking feeling that you cant extract any value, cant bluff and will be blown off your hand on any river that villian bets.

OTT I would check back - Keep some of his bluffs in (like AhKh, AcKc or other draw) & the T is a really bad card. If he happens to have some form of Tx, you allow him to thinly value bet the river.

Granted, half the deck is bad for you... but its your fault for 3 betting pre. Once you got yourself in to this mess, minimise losses since nothing is going to be +ev here unless we are lucky enough for it to be checked down (which may happen the times v. has 99, 88, Tx)

Thanks for all the feedback guys full hand below if your interested.

LOL, now that I see the whole hand, you can note that villain is bad. Basically, you had the only hand that had potential to pay off QQ.

Exactly. When you 3-bet and he calls, his hand is face up. It's QQ every single time. (TT folds, AA, KK and AK usually 4-bet)
You should have put him on AK/TT+ pre-flop and gone set-mining. 3-betting JJ versus EP raiser is burning money. You're never getting value from worse.

Haven't read any replies.

Any reads/stats/info, etc.?

I don't like the pre-flop 3bet vs. an unknown given these position dynamics. I just call pre-flop.

As played, the flop is fine .... maybe bet a little more.

As played, the turn seems like a tough decision. It is mostly because we don't know anything about our opponent. If we knew our opponent was real bad and could have 88 or some other things here then we could call. With what we know I think I fold.

I like what you did on the flop, Id bet a wee bit more on the turn to get value from draws. When he c/r you - fold. After having looked through my database to work on this leak in my own game, I learned that *most* of the time (about 45% iirc) we are up against 3 of a kind or 2 pair.

edit: changed mind about pre.

Thanks Lego5, no stats as first time I played him, plus it was zoom and first time I had seen him.

Yeah, realise it was a bad play by me there with jacks, should have played them more passively. he turned out to have .

The problem I had with flatting pre is that it might encourage more people behind me into the pot, which I didn't want with jacks...
Perhaps I should take that as a hint as to how vulnerable they are?

But the open raiser is in EP. His range is super-strong. Bigger pairs make up the bulk of his range. You're not playing to flop an overpair, as you'll still be losing to QQ+, you're playing to flop a set. For that reason, you want more players in the pot, so that when you hit your set you win an even bigger pot.
If the raiser is in EP, treat JJ like 99 or 88; go set-mining and laugh like hell when you hit a set and villain stacks off AA.

Raises by UTG and UTG+2 have to be treated with respect. See Nikachu's video for more on this: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...-video-917150/

here are those stats

two pair 20%
set 15%
over pair 10%

we're struggling vs his range for c/r the turn here. without reads Id give him teh ebenfit of the doubt and save my pennies.

Thanks for the link I will definitely check it out.

I have done a bit of reading (I've read the Tao of Poker and am half way through Sklanksys Hold Em, Doyle's Super system is on my kindle for next!), and am aware of the relevance of UTG raises, but for some reason I completely missed it this hand - probably blinded by a pocket pair of face cards!

What I think I am missing is the ability to talk to other people about these things, no one in my friend circle or family play Poker.

This is why I joined up, and after only one day and 2 hands posted I think I can safely say it was a good decision!

Already I've picked up some really good advice about my leaks (bet sizing, ignoring position when I should know better).

Long may it continue!

He has Queens almost always. A lot of people are scared to get it in with Queens preflop as they know they are usually crushed when called or at best flipping, but the hand is too strong for them to fold either.

dont read super system, its a good book but there are better ones that concentrate on nlhe. Dan Harrington on cash vol 1 and 2 are the way forward.