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Old 02-22-2009, 05:54 PM   #1
Cry Me A River
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"Outplaying" players who don't fold

This post originates in this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...-hands-418239/

But I think it's important enough to warrant it's own thread. This also makes it easier for me to link to it and any subsequent discussion in the FAQ.

There's also more discussion of this over in the Micro Full Ring forum as I reposted it there:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...onents-418808/




Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterCAD View Post
This is exactly what happens its like you read my mind or something, I never OUTPLAY my opponenets becasue they just will not fold to my bets
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cry Me A River View Post
The way you outplay calling stations is by value betting them to death not by nitting it up and waiting for monsters.
I'm going to harp on this because it is so important and so many people don't get it.

Many new players believe outplaying your opponents means making them fold.

This is wrong!

This is worse than wrong.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the game.

The goal in poker is to take the other player's money.

You outplay your opponents by taking their money.

Period.

Full stop.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

It does not matter how you take their money!

When you die and try to get into to heaven, St. Peter isn't going to be there tallying up all your sick bluffs before letting you in.

Nobody cares but you.

Yes, when you are playing against tight players a common way to take their money is to make them fold a better hand. However, this is a much more difficult strategy to use against loose players.

There any many more ways to outplay your opponents.

You outplay your opponents when you iso raise weak players.

You outplay your opponents when you set mine against tight raisers who can't fold overpairs.

You outplay your opponents when you make smart, thin value bets against calling stations.

You outplay your opponents when you don't pay them off because they obviously have you beat.

You outplay your opponents when you make them chase with bad odds.

You outplay your opponents when you call because they've given you good odds to chase.

etc.

etc.

etc.

Equating outplaying to making players fold is like saying basketball is all about free-throws.

That makes Shaq one of the worst players of all time, not one of the best.
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:24 PM   #2
stupahdahso
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

great observations but...

why you gotta go harshing shaq like that,

who cares bout free throws anyway,

c'mon man the big dude's trying,

nothin's easy in phoenix,

cept....

that another story.
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:06 PM   #3
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Yeah, it's pretty cool that you take the time to post here this much, CMAR...

In short I think that a lot of beginners make the mistake of trying out all kinds of fancy plays and bluffs before even having the basics down properly.

At microstakes, it's possible to win by just playing really tight and value betting hard with good hands. Even at 100nl and 200nl this is true (it's what I do... i grind 20 tables of 200nl 6max like a zombie nit and somehow still win at 1+ ptbb).

the best advice any beginner can get is to keep it simple at first. once you're playing a solid tight game and winning, then you start opening up your game and trying to increase your winrate.

maybe this is what a lot of guys are already trying to do and it's not working for some reason, but still it's such a good and simple piece of advice.

avoid situations where you play OOP in particular... like 3betting a callstation when you have AQ in the blinds and you know hes going to call, then trying to bluff post-flop. beginners post a lot of losing plays similar to this one. 3bet your "fairly good" hands like AQ especially when you have position, and then dont spew too much post flop if you miss.

just my humble opinion
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:42 PM   #4
ROBSCOTT5385
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

great guys!! Nice thread so far!! any other tips for a noob? My buddy is trying to teach me the 2 and 4 rule so I can know what my odds are at the table, but I am having a very difficult time learning something as simple as this. Any advice on an easier way to learn pot odds/ implied odds?
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:04 PM   #5
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by stupahdahso View Post
great observations but...

why you gotta go harshing shaq like that,

who cares bout free throws anyway,

c'mon man the big dude's trying,

nothin's easy in phoenix,

cept....

that another story.
He isn't. He said that just like poker isn't about making ppl fold, basketball isn't about making free throws since its only one part of the game.

Last edited by IamPro; 03-31-2009 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:18 PM   #6
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by stupahdahso View Post
great observations but...

why you gotta go harshing shaq like that,

who cares bout free throws anyway,

c'mon man the big dude's trying,

nothin's easy in phoenix,

cept....

that another story.
WHOOOOSH!!!! went right over your head
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:49 PM   #7
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCOTT5385 View Post
great guys!! Nice thread so far!! any other tips for a noob? My buddy is trying to teach me the 2 and 4 rule so I can know what my odds are at the table, but I am having a very difficult time learning something as simple as this. Any advice on an easier way to learn pot odds/ implied odds?
Dude, I'm scratching my head and all but I don't think there is anything easier in poker than the Rule of 2 & 4.

But being an old limit player, I don't use 2 & 4 vs Break Even % at the table very much. I use x:y odds ratios. I may be the only NL player who does this.
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:15 PM   #8
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Thanks to the response to my post phydaux!! I think that I am just confused about the math of poker and I don't know which questions to ask and how to ask them!! I guess I would just like to know how many forms of math is there in NL holdem and which ones should I be using as a noobie to learn things like what percentage I am in the game, what my pot odds/ implied odds are, if I am a dog or not. I just am very confused on how to start using math ( which I think is probably a very important part of NL holdem) to improve my game!! Also, I do not quite understand the 2 and 4 rule yet .... I think if I learned this than I would be able to start on the rest of the math!! Any suggestions or help would be very appreciated!!
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:02 PM   #9
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

All I have been playing for a past couple of days has been 6.25 turbo HU SNGs and there is nothing but loose-passive opponents that I am having trouble beating. It's not enough to wait to catch a hand but it just seems like they will catch second pair and call it down catch another card. Any other tips for the beating the LPP?

QQ

Edit: I normally try to play a LAG style in these matches but end up playing TAG, which I believe is the correct move against these players. I am hitting about 50-55% win rate which is not enough because for every win/loss I lose $0.50!
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:54 PM   #10
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCOTT5385 View Post
Thanks to the response to my post phydaux!! I think that I am just confused about the math of poker and I don't know which questions to ask and how to ask them!! I guess I would just like to know how many forms of math is there in NL holdem and which ones should I be using as a noobie to learn things like what percentage I am in the game, what my pot odds/ implied odds are, if I am a dog or not. I just am very confused on how to start using math ( which I think is probably a very important part of NL holdem) to improve my game!! Also, I do not quite understand the 2 and 4 rule yet .... I think if I learned this than I would be able to start on the rest of the math!! Any suggestions or help would be very appreciated!!
Once you get serious about poker, memorizing pot odds and outs should be near the top of your "to do" list. When you have a flush draw, you should know instantly that you have 9 outs, which means that in NLHE you have pot odds of 1.86:1 with two cards to come, or 4.11:1 with one card to come.

This isn't a lot of information to memorize, no more than memorizing your multiplication tables. And it's as fundamental to poker as learning the multiplication tables is to mathematics.

By the way, to give an idea of how math works in poker, go to pokersyte.com. There are a bunch of odd charts there, including one for pot odds and outs.

You can figure out a lot of things by knowing the odds. Once you get past pot odds and outs, here are some of the things you can know, or at least estimate closely, by "learning the odds", or to put it another way, understanding the math behind poker:

How likely is it that I am the only one at my table holding an ace?
How likely is it that someone else has an ace with a better kicker?
How likely is it that if the board is paired, a full house has my flush beat?

There are many things that make a good poker player. You can't just understand the math behind a play. You also have to understand the person making the play. But the math is important. I would say that basic poker math is one of the most important things you can know.

Players vary widely in how deep they get into the math, and in how well they can apply it. To give you an example of how in-depth you can get, and what you can learn from the math, consider an example from Harrington on Hold 'em, Volume 2.

In HOH2, Dan Harrington spends 11 pages (starting on page 162) explaining how to do the math to figure out a problem like the following:

Four folds to you, and there are four players behind you yet to act. Given certain blind levels, stack sizes, and the different playing styles of the four players yet to act, is T8o a mathematically good enough hand with which to shove?

Last edited by Poker Clif; 03-31-2009 at 11:56 PM. Reason: added "2" HOH
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Old 04-01-2009, 02:09 AM   #11
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

You value bet their souls away, that's what you do.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:20 AM   #12
ROBSCOTT5385
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Thanks alot Poker clif! ... I am going to go check that site out!
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:53 AM   #13
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishdonkey View Post
Yeah, it's pretty cool that you take the time to post here this much, CMAR...

In short I think that a lot of beginners make the mistake of trying out all kinds of fancy plays and bluffs before even having the basics down properly.

At microstakes, it's possible to win by just playing really tight and value betting hard with good hands. Even at 100nl and 200nl this is true (it's what I do... i grind 20 tables of 200nl 6max like a zombie nit and somehow still win at 1+ ptbb).

the best advice any beginner can get is to keep it simple at first. once you're playing a solid tight game and winning, then you start opening up your game and trying to increase your winrate.

maybe this is what a lot of guys are already trying to do and it's not working for some reason, but still it's such a good and simple piece of advice.

avoid situations where you play OOP in particular... like 3betting a callstation when you have AQ in the blinds and you know hes going to call, then trying to bluff post-flop. beginners post a lot of losing plays similar to this one. 3bet your "fairly good" hands like AQ especially when you have position, and then dont spew too much post flop if you miss.

just my humble opinion
This has recently turned into a huge leak in my game. I am WAY TOO PARANOID that everyone at the table with " reg " type stats is a 2+2 er and is making a move so I turn into a calling station. Fancy Play Syndrome is a killer in the Micros.
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Old 04-01-2009, 04:11 PM   #14
Poker Clif
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

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Originally Posted by ROBSCOTT5385 View Post
Thanks alot Poker clif! ... I am going to go check that site out!
yw
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Old 04-01-2009, 04:46 PM   #15
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

I think this may a term definition problem.

The term "outplay" could be defined as taking pots away. This could be by making villain fold a better hand or it could simply be claiming an orphaned pot with position and aggression. One other example might be slowplaying where you are telling a story to villain making him think he has the best hand. A third example might be snapping off a bluff with a good read.

So I think all of the above examples are playing against villain with some sort of skill. That is, you can tell a story with your line and they are actually listening to and believe your story. You also need an opponent who some skill in bluffing so you can get that read.

In general, I would think lots of players relate "outplay" to deception. A non-observant opponent or one with little skill cannot be deceived since he is not paying attention to your story.

When you are playing against basic opponents who chase against the odds, overvalue hands, call light, etc. (i.e. don't fold) you need to forget about deception and tighten up, don't bluff or slowplay, value bet every opportunity, get away from hands that are beat, etc. This may simply be "playing better".

Anyways, that's my take.
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Old 08-09-2009, 04:00 PM   #16
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Thanks to the people on this thread! Has been very helpful!!

Cheers!
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:52 PM   #17
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Great posts CMAR & Pantsonfire. Even in the micros you need to classify your opponents. For me I classify them as the following:

Loose passive - aka calling stations.
Weak tight- nitty "fit or fold" types
Tag - avoid them unless they are fishy.
Lag - very rare in the micros.
Aggrodonk- just bad lags. Almost never bet into them. these are the types u can call down with TPGK no matter how much they bet. But be careful if the start to become passive.

Once you classify your opponents you play against them accordingly.

So for the noobs don't bluff calling stations. Learn it love it embrace it. They will suck out on you. And they will piss u off but in the long u will peofit by just vbetting them.
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Old 08-09-2009, 06:09 PM   #18
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

I think this entire thread is completely 100% standard.

I knew this when I played for a few days at play money for the first time lol
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Old 08-10-2009, 01:17 AM   #19
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

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I think this entire thread is completely 100% standard.

I knew this when I played for a few days at play money for the first time lol
Congratulations.
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Old 08-10-2009, 01:48 AM   #20
IamPro
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

My middle name is Daniel Negreanu, I outplay ppl all day long
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:04 AM   #21
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

Naniel Degranu you mean?
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:19 AM   #22
IamPro
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

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Naniel Degranu you mean?
You forgot the 'e' sir
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:25 AM   #23
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

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You forgot the 'e' sir
Silly me, sorry PmaoIr
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:26 AM   #24
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

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Silly me, sorry PmaoIr
Its all good DonkShove
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:33 PM   #25
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Re: "Outplaying" players who don't fold

I play in a small home game for fun more than anything,
it's set up like a SnG rather than cash game. Where 1st and 2nd place get paid.

There's usually 9 or 10 players. My problem is that almost eveyrone
plays no fold'em hold'em and results in a couple of players having
massive chip leads.

Normally I can get into the top 3 playing very tight and picking up
a few pots here and there, unfortunately the case is that the
other 2 players will almost always have a minimum of a 2/1 chip lead over me.
When it gets to this stage they start an aggressive style,
add this to the fact that they genuinely won't fold
I'm left bewildered at what to do.
Value betting opportunities just don't come up offten enough,
and guessing their hand range to bet medium strength holdings
that may be good just proves suicidal.

Help! I'm really stuck!
Can anyone point me in the right direction for some advice on this?
Thanks in advance, and sorry for such a longwinded question
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