Struggling to come to an understanding of value bets by reading about them. Havent found the killer article yet. Perhaps I can understand better by posting hands and asking for comments.

This hand, when I bet is it for value or as a bluff? Either way, I am unaware of which it is.

You think worse hands than K-high are calling? then it's for value.
You think better hands than K-high are folding? then it's a bluff.

Let's assume that CO is gonna fold anything worse than top pair. In this case, it's a good bluff.

Pertaining exactly to that hand

x% of the time its for value when villain has 2 hearts
y% of the time its a bluff when villain holds a hand that beats you
z% of the time you are betting to fold out villain's equity vs the best hand, K high
---24% equity is a lot (6 outs)..meaning you lose roughly once every 4 times. That's why we bet.

You have to account for all of the villain's range when betting, checking, w/e

ie
(BTN iso's otb, I'm the only caller in BB)
I check/raised a K94 flop with [KJ] and got called. The turn came a 4 and I checked:
90% of that check was intended for deception
10% of that check was intended for pot control in case villain had AK

Hope that makes sense

This is collecting dead money.

Well, why did you bet?

I understand it's "standard" to cbet as the pfr and all, but do you bet and Then think about why or do you have reason to bet and Then bet?

cause your reason for betting defines what type of bet you (think you) are making.

this is a level right ?

I raise to ISO a fish who I expect him to make lots of calling mistakes pre and then to fit or fold on the flop. I bet the flop because I thought I could win the money in the pot. I did not think "if I bet here he will fold pairs less than AA or call with hands worse than K high". This makes me uneasy because thats what Im supposed to be thinking, but Im not. Hell, every single flop I see I think "Villain can have sets, 2 pair, over pair, Ace high, flush or str draws" ... and the list in my head just gets longer and longer. I only stop thinking about it because there is no point to just thinking and thinking if you dont know how to resolve.


No this isnt a level, but thanks for your input Mudrc.

I understand. Well, coming up with all the stuff he can have is a start. what you need to know (just ballpark) is how often he has which part of that range and what you want to achieve against that range to make the most money.

It's for protection.

You're betting to protect your equity from his range, which you're ahead of. You also fold him off some better hands, even though you expect to be good most of the time.

I would say it's more a bluff than a value bet, but whatever.

See discussion in "Best advice received/given".

According to Harrington on Online Cash Games 6-Max NL, a value bet is just a bet made under two conditions:

1. You have good reason to believe that you have the best hand at the point of betting
2. You are beating lots of hands in your opponent's range with which he's likely to call your bet.

This is a clear bluff and a standard cbet.

Agreed.
I think Chad's decided to define all bets as value bets or bluffs, when it's more complicated than that.
There are three main reasons to bet, and they have some crossover between them.
Betting for value when you don't mind a worse hand calling.
Betting as a bluff, when you want hands with an equity edge to fold.
Betting to capture dead money without more cards being seen.

A c-bet with king high can fit into all three categories at once, but it's most obviously a bluff.

Here, the idea is to take the pot down and mop up equity (things like QJ has a fair bit of equity against you - as jackie says, "protection" is another way to phrase it - which, as he says, is a bluff) - In the process, you may get a better hand to fold [2x, 33-66, KQ] which is a bonus.

A bet here is profitable so long as v. will fold 33% of the time (approx) - and villian should do on this type of board.

We also have a little bit of equity with our K/T if v. happens to have 88-QQ so its not all terrible when v. calls.... But that shouldnt be the primary reason to bluff - If the bluff will be outright proditable, any extra equity we have in the pot is a pure bonus.

I don't really agree with any of the 3..

the king high bet only fits into all 3 because you worded it like that.
valuebet when you "don't mind" a worse hand calling? I never mind a worse hand calling. even when I'm bluffing with K-high. I know it's semantics but since we're defining..

and you bluff when you simply want better hands to fold. "equity edge" is technically true, I guess. just doesn't sound right.. like when you're betting with absolute crap, are you trying to fold out hands that "have an edge" on you, equity-wise? the edge being 95,5%? well, yea. but it's more like they absolutely crush you.

and the thing with collecting dead money is, it's just a (side-)effect imo. not the reason you bet. the reason you bet (if you're expecting to collect dead money) is to make most of his range fold. be it hands with equity (overs) or hands that beat you. the first would be for protection, the second as a bluff.

so i agree there are 3 major types of bets. but the 3rd one after value and bluff is protection.

Chad - how many tables do you play? And if your still zooming it up, I would suggest going back to the standard tables (The amount of time you can dedicate to a single decision at zoom is a lot less than 4 tables of the normal tables)

The best way to think about a bluff spot like this is to work out your bet size (here 50% pot), work out how often v. has to fold in order for said bet to be +ev (33% of the time or more - The Poker Blueprint has a nifty chart for this) and stop and think "Okay, based on my villians stats, the board texture and so on... does he fold 33% of the time or more to this bet?"

If yes, go for it.

If no, dont.

You dont really need to know what he folds exactly... just that he will to make the bet profitable. Once you get your concidence back, you will instantly know that here, you can expect folds from "things like pocket pairs, hands with equity against us (QJ, etc) and maybe 7x" - so long as I expect that to be a decent portion of his range, ill go with the bet. If villian is a massive whale here and has every single Ax hand in his range or perhaps, never folds, then i wouldnt be taking the cbet.

Also, any equity we have is a bonus, and not much more - In the micros anyway. Yes, you can think about barreling and such, but I would stay away from that untill you get your A game back.

The above applies for hands where were mopping up equity - Like 33 here - were bluffing because we want folds, but can we get enough folds for the bet to be +ev now?

Also, I still need the link - if you havnt already, do some running comentry whilst playing. In particular, your thought process - Everything that goes through your mind whilst playing needs to come out of your mouth (Strangly, i find myself playing better when i talk outloud about my actions at the poker table - Im sure my flat mates think im insane, but it does work )