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Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time)

06-06-2017 , 06:33 PM
So, I'm relearning the game and I'm coming to understand, from watching lots of tutorials and HHs, that rarely do players raise a flop when they've got top pair, are in position, and weren't the preflop aggressor. Typically it is a heads up situation where a player will flop top pair in position and just call the cbet.

In my earlier days, I would quite often raise in this spot with the thought that I can likely check down the turn and then call a bet on the river barring any exceptional boards or my hand getting stronger. I'm certain now that this is bad form but could someone explain why? Is it related to losing value that you could gain from later streets? I'm sure my approach previously was quite fishy but I suppose in my head it made sense because it allowed me to control the pot size as rarely would a villain bet the turn and if he reraised on the flop, I could easily fold in most scenarios. If my hand improved on the turn/river then obviously I would bet.

Thanks!
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote
06-06-2017 , 06:35 PM
Think about what happens if you raise:

a) when the opponent has air
b) when the opponent has you crushed
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote
06-06-2017 , 07:23 PM
It is bad now, because even bad players have now access to information and learned to play "winning poker" even at the micros. They have learned to fold to a raise if they feel they do not have the nuts and will not improve to a nut hand. They are much more passive, and will even play tricky when they have the nuts to pull as many BBs from you as possible.

The pre-BF days of spazzers and calling stations with bottom pair are over.
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote
06-06-2017 , 07:26 PM
or worse, when he calls you and you give him a free card at his draw on the turn.
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote
06-07-2017 , 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfour
Think about what happens if you raise:

a) when the opponent has air
b) when the opponent has you crushed
A) You lose value and your opponent is less likely to bluff as well
B) Fortunes have been lost by over-valuing TPTK ... and now you have narrowed your range while only knowing that your opponent has decided to stick around.

We assume you are IP here and your opponent has donked or c-bet. Did you flat a raise IP? Did your opponent limp-call your raise PF?

There are a number of conditions that can apply to your thread title but in general you are giving off more information than needed with 'only 1 pair'. GL
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote
06-07-2017 , 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfour
Think about what happens if you raise:

a) when the opponent has air
b) when the opponent has you crushed
While I understand it is less likely, what if the following are in play as well (I don't know, I'm asking):

c) When the opponent has TP with a worse kicker he's not likely to fold
d) When the opponent has second pair he's not likely to fold

Is the risk of losing value greater than the risk of losing the pot to a better hand?
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote
06-07-2017 , 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pensfan
While I understand it is less likely, what if the following are in play as well (I don't know, I'm asking):

c) When the opponent has TP with a worse kicker he's not likely to fold
d) When the opponent has second pair he's not likely to fold

Is the risk of losing value greater than the risk of losing the pot to a better hand?
If they're that terrible that they will pay off more than two bets, or a bet and a raise, and you're that sure that they are that terrible that you want to take away their opportunity to bluff on the next street, and you think the added value you get from these spots more than offsets the amount of time you just end up barrelling into a better hand, then sure, go ahead and raise, you'll be alright
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote
06-07-2017 , 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pensfan

c) When the opponent has TP with a worse kicker he's not likely to fold
d) When the opponent has second pair he's not likely to fold

Is the risk of losing value greater than the risk of losing the pot to a better hand?
Back in my days of playing NL online......[groan]..... I would look at a TP-type hand as a 40BB hand....meaning I would invest no more than 40BB against an unknown villain. If you have solid reads that villain will pay you off lighter, push more chips in. A tighter opponent required a more delicate approach. We looked to opportunities for getting in light value bets as a means for earning higher bb/100.....and were generally rewarded.

I would assume the online community now has much better players...and they fall into the second group (tighter, smarter players) much easier....so play cautiously may be the MO required. I am not sure that looking to gain a few chips through light value bets is today's best strat. Certainly not without bulletproof reads imo.
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote
06-07-2017 , 02:09 PM
Top pair is usually a good bluff-catcher. In position especially, it makes almost no sense to raise with a bluff-catcher. You should be raising polarized, for value or as a bluff, not with a mid-strength hand that has good showdown value.

FWIW, OOP, in theory, top pair is more often (but still rarely) check-raised by a pre-flop caller, because protecting equity (or denying the player in position realizing his cheaply) is more important when the BB defends with a wide range. In position with top pair, you realize your equity by calling down.

In the micros, though, you should hardly ever be raising post-flop with top pair. It's a great way to valuecut/valueown yourself. (see Sixfour's post #2)

Note: exceptions occur when the top pair is so weak that it benefits more from protection. e.g. A8s would raise more often on 852 than KQ is raised on K52, because a pair of 8s is clearly more vulnerable to overcards than a pair of kings.
Please explain why raising top pair on the flop is bad? (most of the time) Quote

      
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