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Old 12-13-2008, 06:42 AM   #26
RoSeeker
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Okay, time for CrazyFool's stats ^^

First things first: Wow, you're running at exactly EV. Damn, I'm always either 200 or so above or below EV.

You're playing pretty loose; your stats are very well within reason, but you're definitely playing a looser game than most especially at these stakes, and the question is whether you are doing so profitably. My default response to your vpip is to lower them. Your PFR/VPIP ratio is quite good, however, so you're not being passive or anything. Overall I think your vpip/pfr is good if it works for you.

That said, your WTSD and W$SD is quite low; this means that adding additional hands into your repetoire may not have been very effective; if you were to maintain the general 49-51% W$SD WHILE increasing your VPIP, I would be very impressed. As it stands, however, your looseness seems neutral, or slightly unprofitable. Looking at your non-showdown winnings, it also seems that your use of aggression has not brought clearly profitable results. FWIW, your PFR is as high as my average VPIP.

You may argue that you've increased your Shania (=P) by having more trash in your range, but I'm somewhat doubtful about that. I'm guessing that your nonshowdown winning is low because while you're being aggressive most of the times, you're also getting your bluffs picked off, getting reraised, or your double barrels called down too much. Nonetheless, a positive NSD winning is quite fine. I'm just wondering if some of your aggression is misplaced simply because your image will not be very strong and the hands you will have will generally be worse than if you played a tighter game. AF of 4 is high and good, but I would argue slightly too high; you might be losing value by not inducing bluffs or even c/c or check raising as the preflop aggressor.

I'm somewhat surprised your 3bet isn't higher than it is considering your PFR. You're probably stealing a LOT, and tangling less when it's already been open raised, which is fine, really, but I'd say a bit on the dangerous side.

Your SB VPIP is definitely too high, and the results show, too, that it's been unprofitable. The SB is also where the distance between your VPIP and PFR is highest, so you NEED to solve that. as a rule of thumb, I almost NEVER flat call from the SB unless I'm getting crazy odds or I plan on check raise bluffing a large majority of flops, and of course the villain has a very tight range and I have a premium.

It's really strange that the SB is so much more loose than BB, since for one thing you have more invested in BB to start with + you get position on the SB.

A side question... why did you flat call with quads? =O
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:22 PM   #27
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Thanks for the feedback Ro

Quote:
First things first: Wow, you're running at exactly EV. Damn, I'm always either 200 or so above or below EV.
Thats from my overall graph which start out with a really hot streak for like 3k hands. This is my graph from the last 2 months



And i know the showdown winnings are horrible makes me cry a little. I think i call down to light against donks. But also is the running lower than the ev line my reason for this terrible showdown winnings. i no that i had a few KK v AA set v set etc, which is fine, i can deal with coolers and variance but i dont want to be thinking - oh i play good and get sucked out on



Quote:
Looking at your non-showdown winnings, it also seems that your use of aggression has not brought clearly profitable results. FWIW, your PFR is as high as my average VPIP.
I no overall its just slightly profitable but the past two months is where i started playing more like i want to. Those first 3k hands were terrible and i just ran good i suppose. If you look at original graph i lost alot without showdown.

Also Ro - I know from some of your other posts that you multi-table alot more than me, which would account for a lower vpip. I just play 4-6 tables and loosen up when i think i have an edge post-flop. But i think you are right, i could tighten up a little. I think i leave myself to be 3-bet light with such looseness and aggresion.

Quote:
I'm somewhat surprised your 3bet isn't higher than it is considering your PFR. You're probably stealing a LOT, and tangling less when it's already been open raised, which is fine, really, but I'd say a bit on the dangerous side.
I no i really should be 3-betting more. I always 3-bet premium hands and some others and very rarely 3-bet light unless im up against the right opp. I should be 3-betting light more i think from the blinds.

And you also have me-im a relentless blind stealer, i just cant stop myself lol maybe if i play more tables il tighten up a bit. But atm im comfortable with4-6

Quote:
Your SB VPIP is definitely too high
This is something i havent really worked on. I should be folding from the SB more. Although one reason towards this will be that i open up alot of tables rather than join some. And then you are playing HU or 3way for a while. But this is only temporary and wouldnt count for all of that vpip. Your right though i should be nittier from SB

Quote:
A side question... why did you flat call with quads? =O
this was late in a session - i half butchured that hand lol tbh i got overexcited and didnt know what to do with them, iv had quads before but this guy had been really aggro and was anoying me lol and i knew i couldnt do any harm to give a free card, so i was hoping he would improve on any draw he might have. FWIW he called my river bet AI with 68 or something lol i shoulda blurred out the hands on paint
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Old 12-13-2008, 07:11 PM   #28
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Well, I played 3 months @ Pokerstars, but now i play @ OnGame Netword. Here are my all Ongame stats:







My game started very nicely there, but now i am quite break-even. I guess i had just good run first 17k hands. I don`t believe that i have diminished. But what should i do with my game? Is this Non-Showdown loss normal @ NL10 or not?

I also add my last 10k hands Position stats to show that i have opened LP:

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Old 12-13-2008, 07:33 PM   #29
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

@crazy fool

your stats are pretty good imo, no need to play tighter or anything, you seem to know how to handle things postflop. This is sufficent for NL10

Just go on, move up and maybe then some other leaks will reveal themselves as villains get better

Edit: just noticed your sb vpip, this is prolly your biggest leak, pretty obvious just by the $ you lost there. You need to improve your positional awareness, get tighter in the blinds, looser in LP
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Old 12-13-2008, 08:06 PM   #30
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Buildup
15, 10 is ok I guess but still a bit tight/passive, 12/9 is rediculously nitty.
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:15 PM   #31
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

I would think this would make a pretty good sticky. It would def be a good thread for new players looking to improve.
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Old 12-14-2008, 11:38 PM   #32
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Hey guys,

Would you be able to analyze my stats? I multi-table 6.50 Turbo STT, about 4 at a time on poker stars.








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Old 12-15-2008, 12:24 AM   #33
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

ahhh u know what I just realized I only have 7K hands, I'll repost after 3000 more.
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Old 12-15-2008, 01:31 AM   #34
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

SnGs are also more difficult to analye through stats as many other factors affect your decisions. As such, I suggest making a video of yourself playing a few tables with commentary or posting your hand histories (with pokerxfactor player).
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Old 12-15-2008, 03:44 PM   #35
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

perhaps some food for thought and a little evidence against the common complaint that "nobody folds" at uNL full ring.



i regularly run at 100NL and 200NL FR while occasionally playing 6max (where ironically i am forced to tighten up).

played 5K hands at 25NL to teach a friend to that uNL full ring was playable as a seeming "reckless" LAG and wasnt "suicide". 5K hands is admittedly a small sample size, but many sessions i ran as high as 40/30 ostensibly exposing me to greater variance and more marginal spots than an average TAG running 20/18.

cliff:
-microstakes players do fold.
-ironically, easier to steal blinds relentlessly in FR than 6max.
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Old 12-16-2008, 02:37 PM   #36
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Quote:
-ironically, easier to steal blinds relentlessly in FR than 6max.
very ironic

btw, nice upswong there
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Old 12-16-2008, 04:41 PM   #37
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepito View Post
-ironically, easier to steal blinds relentlessly in FR than 6max.

Doesn't seem ironic to me. Seems logical.


You won't get as many chances to steal at full ring but when you do get a chance to steal you'll probably have a higher success rate because doesn't it make sense that people playing full ring will probably defend and 3bet less often than people playing 6max? It makes sense to me.
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Old 12-16-2008, 07:31 PM   #38
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

you conflated "successful steal attempt" with "attempt to steal %".

2P2 orthodoxy provides that FR preflop ranges should be tighter while 6max preflop ranges ought be looser. hence, the irony in such a seemingly ridiculous high attempt to steal blinds %. moreover, PT2 only counts open raises on the button and CO as steal attempts, so the stat does not include instances of attacking limpers from MP to the HJ.

try searching micro FR stat threads for any examples of players running 30/20 with an attempt to steal blind % as high as 64%. it is unlikely youll find many.
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Old 12-16-2008, 10:33 PM   #39
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepito View Post
-ironically, easier to steal blinds relentlessly in FR than 6max.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepito View Post
you conflated "successful steal attempt" with "attempt to steal %".

2P2 orthodoxy provides that FR preflop ranges should be tighter while 6max preflop ranges ought be looser. hence, the irony in such a seemingly ridiculous high attempt to steal blinds %. moreover, PT2 only counts open raises on the button and CO as steal attempts, so the stat does not include instances of attacking limpers from MP to the HJ.

try searching micro FR stat threads for any examples of players running 30/20 with an attempt to steal blind % as high as 64%. it is unlikely youll find many.

Easier to steal the blinds implies success rate. There's no such thing as easier to attempt to steal. I could attempt to steal the blinds 100% if I wanted. If one says the blinds are easier to steal then another would expect him to be talking about a high success rate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pepito View Post
2P2 orthodoxy provides that FR preflop ranges should be tighter while 6max preflop ranges ought be looser.
This is exactly why it is easier to steal at full ring. Sure you will probably get less attempts but the attempts you get will succeed at a higher rate because the players in the blinds will on average play a tighter range than players at 6max would ... meaning they will fold to your steal attempts more often.



If I played full ring with all the nits there I would imagine my ATS % would be very high since a lot of the players I'd be playing would likely be very tight ... and likely would fold their blinds. Of course I also imagine I would get many fewer opportunities.
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Old 12-16-2008, 11:33 PM   #40
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
If I played full ring with all the nits there I would imagine my ATS % would be very high since a lot of the players I'd be playing would likely be very tight ... and likely would fold their blinds. Of course I also imagine I would get many fewer opportunities.
IIRC, your ATTS% is pretty high already.
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Old 12-17-2008, 01:23 AM   #41
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

I have been playing several years off and on in the micros...grinding my first PP account up from $100 to $600 before it was closed, transferred about $150 from that into stars and grinded that up to about $1k before I decided I really needed to buy a Gibson!

Anyway, I started getting the itch again and ended up hitting a mtt freeroll for $3 and decided to see if I could grind it up from the 2nls.

Overall I'm happy with how things have gone - my main concern is my NSD$ being so negative. My 25nl has been choppy mostly when I was trying some things out to correct my NSD$. When I play my normal game without worrying about it, I do fine. At what stakes should the NSD$ be expected to turn around?

As far as the rest of the stats go, this is the first time I've ever taken them too seriously - I've been using PT for about the past month now to try it out and would appreciate any insights that can be learned from the data so far.

Thanks very much!


By mrkite08 at 2008-12-16


By mrkite08 at 2008-12-16


By mrkite08 at 2008-12-16
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:39 AM   #42
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Am i just running bad?

Or do I play bad and get lucky? I'm not too sure anymore... =/

I play .10/.25 NL






Any legit criticism would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:49 AM   #43
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Re: Am i just running bad?

You realize you have a very solid winrate over that sample, right?

Last edited by Lego05; 12-18-2008 at 02:04 AM. Reason: added comma
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:07 AM   #44
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Re: Am i just running bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
You realize you have a very solid winrate over that sample, right?
This, but it looks like you bluff too much and go to showdown with bad hands too often.
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:10 AM   #45
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Re: Am i just running bad?

His showdown winnings aren't too bad considering this laggish style. It looks like most of the $ you make is from picking good spots to put pressure on opponents. Keep it up, your doing fine imo. If things go south for the next 10k hands then you need some considerations.
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:06 AM   #46
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Re: Am i just running bad?

doesnt seem very laggish to me. even if its FR his VPIP is not even 18, but this is 6M right?
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Old 12-18-2008, 04:24 AM   #47
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Re: Am i just running bad?

yeh its 6max, too me it seems like im showing down too many times with the worst hand =/ its just hard to consider me a solid player cuz im on a 17 buyin downswing live and im trying to figure out what im doing wrong =/
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:24 AM   #48
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Re: Am i just running bad?

Uh. Your graph is decent. What's your problem? Obviously you want like 7-8BB/100 before you start get cocky. I hope you're not here to show off your graph. If you want comments on your stats, get some more hands in and post it here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...70/index3.html

Your NSD winnings is good. That's... a good thing You might be blowing away people a bit too much and thus losing value when opponetns have marginal hands, though.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:51 AM   #49
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Re: ** Official Beginners NL Holdem Stats Thread **

Quote:
I have been playing several years off and on in the micros...grinding my first PP account up from $100 to $600 before it was closed, transferred about $150 from that into stars and grinded that up to about $1k before I decided I really needed to buy a Gibson!
That's a pretty good sign for you already, minus maybe the cashing out part. I don't understand how other people who realize that they can win thousands of dollars playing poker can resist the urge to keep playing and move up.

Anyway, your winrate: Sir, I envy your winrate. It seems that you do not multi table a lot though. 6 or so tables I guess? So take my comments with a bit of salt in that regard. Also, you don't have a huge sample size; you seem to be doing well, so I say get in more hands, and think about moving up when you can. Since these results do not include your previous successes, I must assume you're crushing the games over a decent sample size.

Despite all this, I really don't like your VPIP/PFR numbers. 30/13 is a really fishy stat. You're too passive preflop, and also quite passive postflop. Your 3bet isn't so bad, but it should be around 5. The fact that you managed to have 55% W$SD despite a 29 WTSD, I must assume that you're either running quite hot (not too impossible over just 9k hands) or super sharp with reads.

In fact, your stats overall look quite impossible. I'm not too sure how to respond to this. You fold to a lot of C-Bets too, and you cold call FAR too often in the SB. The fact that you win money in the SB is somewhat mindboggling.

Basically, I'd look to play a bit tighter, and more aggressive overall.

Keep it up though.
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Old 12-18-2008, 06:34 AM   #50
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Re: Am i just running bad?

I have to lol cos right now i'd be happy if my last 10k graph was breakeven and i assume your title is wrong and that you are actually asking if you are just running good?....cos you are probably running well and havent had any downswing of note and your green EV line is basically shadowing your $ line.

anyway you may be a bit nitty for 6max but thats okay if you are learning and if you can find people who will payoff when you decide to play a hand. What youll find though as you move up is that people dont payoff or you just wont get hands when the other guy gets a hand he can call with and that is very frustrating.

but this is stats thread material so ill shipit.

ps live and online are different beasts
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