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Old 10-16-2009, 10:56 AM   #1
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Exclamation Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Like many others I started poker not long ago, depositing some cash and going broke that day, then depositing some more and going broke within days, depositing again and going *almost* broke within weeks and then pausing to think, read books, read forums (2p2 rocks), watch videos and specially reviewing my plays.

After that pause I decided to draw a plan in order to know exactly where I want to go and where I stand at any times.
I prepared a spreadsheet and even created a blog so I could have clear and precise objectives and wouldn't go floating around loosing more money then I had already lost.
My plan is to play 10k hands NL2 and make (try) 125$ so I can go up to NL5. For the moment although not perfect, I have 4.6k hands with 49.38$ up.

Sorry for the long introduction but I wanted to show that I'm for real and any help given will be much obliged. Now for the real problem...

I look at my winnings over 4.6k hands and think, well either I'm very lucky which I'm not or something is wrong with the advise given because my stats are 35/12/2.2.
Every session I try to start TAG but I see the dead money and I can't stop my self from limping with hands like Ax Kx Qx JT and suited connectors, even OOP. When the flop comes I usually make a stand and take a lot of them down right there, only giving up on raises or calls to 2nd barrels and very rarely making hero calls or tilting. If I have to fold I fold, I only call when I think I'm ahead being that sometimes I'm not.
I find this very profitable up to the moment.:

Like I said, I started to wonder...what is happening? Is it variance because of only 4.6k hands? Or is this system good to NL2?
WHAT AM I? A fish? a donk? a reg?

Yesterday I found this:
The Three Basic Fish Types

And I found that I'm an Agrodonk loose passive pre-flop!
DAM...sounds ugly!

Now one fact is...it's working another is...I want to play good and profitable poker not only profitable poker...
What should I do?
What must I change first?
Where to go from here?


Thanks in advance,

Elvaslion


PS: Visit my blog: http://Elvaslion.blogspot.com

Last edited by Elvaslion; 10-16-2009 at 11:05 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:05 AM   #2
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Keep doing what you're doing if you're making money at that limit. The goal is to move up.

If your style is helping you achieve that goal right now, then don't change, but I'll tell you right now, when you do move up (maybe around 25nl), limping with Ax, Kx, Qx oop ain't gonna cut it. That's when you'll have to adjust.

Last edited by Mscimitar; 10-16-2009 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Grammar+
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:36 AM   #3
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

I like your chances OP. Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward speedy recovery +1 for the detailed plan too.

I suck for pimping the thread I started so relentlessly but we've got months worth of material aggregated in here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...thread-607367/

I'd start with the beginner's guide, then move to the anthology thread that's posted about 8-10 posts down. Also download all the necessary programs I mention in post #3 and get your free week's membership to deucescracked.com in about a week or two, once you've got your foundation laid. Filter their vids for beginner content and download to your heart's content--they encourage you to download and you can still watch them after your subscription is up. I recommend The Coaching Tree, Tommy Angelo's 8 Fold Path, WiltOnTilt Teaches Poker Math, and From the Ground up with tubasteve.

Honestly, the plan above is at probably close to a month's worth of work. So, gogogogo

Oh, make sure you look at the stuff on variance. The quicker you understand variance, the quicker you'll learn to control tilt and the quicker you'll be on your way. Lots of good poker players don't have a good handle on it even, and that's not good at all.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:02 PM   #4
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mscimitar View Post
Keep doing what you're doing if you're making money at that limit. The goal is to move up.

If your style is helping you achieve that goal right now, then don't change, but I'll tell you right now, when you do move up (maybe around 25nl), limping with Ax, Kx, Qx oop ain't gonna cut it. That's when you'll have to adjust.
Thanks for the advise.
I think I'm going to take it and finish my 10k hands plan with it but after I guess I won't move up right away, I will first try to change my game to where it should be.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:25 PM   #5
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

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Originally Posted by AcesFullMoon View Post
I like your chances OP. Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward speedy recovery +1 for the detailed plan too.

I suck for pimping the thread I started so relentlessly but we've got months worth of material aggregated in here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...thread-607367/

I'd start with the beginner's guide, then move to the anthology thread that's posted about 8-10 posts down. Also download all the necessary programs I mention in post #3 and get your free week's membership to deucescracked.com in about a week or two, once you've got your foundation laid. Filter their vids for beginner content and download to your heart's content--they encourage you to download and you can still watch them after your subscription is up. I recommend The Coaching Tree, Tommy Angelo's 8 Fold Path, WiltOnTilt Teaches Poker Math, and From the Ground up with tubasteve.

Honestly, the plan above is at probably close to a month's worth of work. So, gogogogo

Oh, make sure you look at the stuff on variance. The quicker you understand variance, the quicker you'll learn to control tilt and the quicker you'll be on your way. Lots of good poker players don't have a good handle on it even, and that's not good at all.
Thanks for your words, they really mean something to me because your thread is on my favourites since it was created.

The beginners guide I have read it almost all, like I said, I know how a TAG should play and I even try to start TAG but I just keep slipping to the agro part.

The programs I have them all although I'm not quite sure on how and specially when to use pokerstove. I already printed a topic here on 2p2 and will be a weekend reading. I use HM and analyse my hands.

The deucescracked advise I think it's gold. I've already thought that in a future when my bankroll allowed it I would subscribe but that 2 weeks free being able to download ot my content...gold!

Again Thanks a bunch!
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:32 PM   #6
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

There are a lot of problems with limping preflop but most of them only come up when there are good aggressive players at the table. If your table lets you get away with limping and pays off when you hit you don't need to adjust. Just keep in mind that it's probably something you'll have to change down the road.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:33 PM   #7
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvaslion View Post
My plan is to play 10k hands NL2 and make (try) 125$ so I can go up to NL5. For the moment although not perfect, I have 4.6k hands with 49.38$ up.

I look at my winnings over 4.6k hands and think, well either I'm very lucky which I'm not or something is wrong with the advise given because my stats are 35/12/2.2.

And I found that I'm an Agrodonk loose passive pre-flop!
DAM...sounds ugly!
I just looked at your winrate closer. You're beating the **** out of 2NL. 26 ptbb/100 is pretty damn good for a self-proclaimed agrodonk--for any donk period lol. Then I look at your numbers and think, "yech, donk." Then your winrate and I think, "Whoa, shark."

You must have pretty solid post flop skills to maintain that winrate when you're putting dead money into 2/3 of the pots you're playing. I wouldn't try to recreate my game from scratch, because you're getting great results. But you will want to work on bringing your VPiP and PFR closer together so you can win at the next limits. A natural byproduct is that as they meet in the middle, you'll be entering pots with stronger hands and momentum from pf raising, so your AF will go up on it's own. I forget the exact numbers, but I think an AF closer to 3 is generally more desirable, but as SquirrelsUnite said, if the table's letting you play passively, then paying you off, go for it.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:43 PM   #8
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

more like passive donk
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:04 PM   #9
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirrelsUnite View Post
There are a lot of problems with limping preflop but most of them only come up when there are good aggressive players at the table. If your table lets you get away with limping and pays off when you hit you don't need to adjust. Just keep in mind that it's probably something you'll have to change down the road.
I understand.
There are tables I loose money too, probably those you talk about where I hardly can enter the flop.
There are also some tables where my bluffs get called all the time but every time I end picking up a monster and since I have so many hate on me the monsters get payed and save the nigth.

But like I said before, I want to change my game.
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:07 PM   #10
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesFullMoon View Post
I just looked at your winrate closer. You're beating the **** out of 2NL. 26 ptbb/100 is pretty damn good for a self-proclaimed agrodonk--for any donk period lol. Then I look at your numbers and think, "yech, donk." Then your winrate and I think, "Whoa, shark."

You must have pretty solid post flop skills to maintain that winrate when you're putting dead money into 2/3 of the pots you're playing. I wouldn't try to recreate my game from scratch, because you're getting great results. But you will want to work on bringing your VPiP and PFR closer together so you can win at the next limits. A natural byproduct is that as they meet in the middle, you'll be entering pots with stronger hands and momentum from pf raising, so your AF will go up on it's own. I forget the exact numbers, but I think an AF closer to 3 is generally more desirable, but as SquirrelsUnite said, if the table's letting you play passively, then paying you off, go for it.
Perhaps instead of recreate my game I need to remove the worst parts and include new ones, like those you said.
Going to try to start today by stop playing those open belly straight draws although when they hit the pay so good


Thanks for the advise again!
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:07 PM   #11
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

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Originally Posted by Combat Waitress View Post
more like passive donk
Care to elaborate and perhaps help?

Thanks!
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:09 PM   #12
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvaslion View Post
Care to elaborate and perhaps help?

Thanks!
The short answer is: your PFR is far too low to be called aggro. And 2.2 AF is really about the lowest AF a winning poker play can have, generally speaking. AF>4 is more in the aggro category.
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:23 PM   #13
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Play more tables imo. Focus on position and only play good situations.
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:04 PM   #14
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

If you lose the loose-passiveness preflop, then aggro donk doesn't have to be that bad
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:43 PM   #15
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Re: Now that I know what I am...Please Help an Agrodonk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesFullMoon View Post
The short answer is: your PFR is far too low to be called aggro. And 2.2 AF is really about the lowest AF a winning poker play can have, generally speaking. AF>4 is more in the aggro category.
I understand that but doesn't the limping counts towards the aggression factor? because I think without the limping my af would be bigger...probably I'm wrong.
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