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Old 08-27-2009, 11:05 AM   #601
RoSeeker
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
It's the 4 bet bluff % that's close to zero.
Yes, that's what I mean. It's not close to zero, and should not be if 3bet light/wide ranges aren't 0, which should also not be the case.

And no, at 25NL there aren't because players are bad.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:10 PM   #602
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

[QUOTE=jenkins_steve;12749035]
Quote:
I have about 60,000 hands at 25NL and 25,000 at 50NL. Apart from maniacs which are easy to spot and don't tend to last too long, I've only seen a 4bet bluff a hand full of times.
Quote:
I'm a fairly tight player and don't 3 bet bluff that often

the two are directly linked. therefore is why when i 5bet shove AQ, its for value. im not going to be shoving every time, and im not a 3bet monkey, but i 3bet with enough consistency that people will make adjustments, and either 4bet me lighter for value, or 4bet bluff when me, when i 3bet in the button or the cut off.

lower than 25nl, i agree 100% though that people arent adjusting to 3bets particularly. but at 25nl, and 50nl, people are for sure
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:20 PM   #603
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by USS_steamship View Post
Quote:
I'd never played against him before, but when he came he bought in for 8.80, posted the blinds oop and won that hand when he just minbet the flop and the big blind folded. In the very next hand he was in middle position and called UTG's (who had a full stack) raise, the flop came 447 two spades and he minraised UTG's cbet, the turn came a K that didn't complete any flush draws, and he shoved all-in 2x the size of the pot when UTG checked and UTG folded.
so whats your opinion of this player, and how are you going to adjust to exploit him?

Quote:
I didn't know anything about the UTG player either and he had played only two hands before this so that's why I just called
this is good.

Quote:
When the flop came all small cards I decided to try a checkraise. I think the UTG can be cbetting here with whatever he has and the BTN could be calling with a flush draw or if he hit any pair on the flop. In hindsight, I think my raise was too small on the flop and depending on how loose the BTN plays he might call with just two overcards here. So the turn was an overcard I wasn't happy about it and I checked and he checked behind. Then the river is another six and also completes a flush draw. At this point I don't see any point in betting so I check again and the opponent went all-in.
i dont think he is caling with two bare overcards (i.e. no flush draw), and the remote possibility that he does wouldnt make me discouraged from betting the turn.

what your reaction be if you were re-raised on the flop and why??


Quote:
Had I raised more I could have just shoved all-in regardless of what the turn card is when I already have enough $ in the pot.
so why didnt u just bet/call the turn anyway? the pot is already huge
.
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:46 PM   #604
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

I'm not sure, but if the utg had raised my flop raise then it feels like I'm behind here pretty often, unless he has 77-99 that he might raise with again, and I probably would have folded.

But had the BTN raised then I'm not so sure what hands he could be doing that with, top pair + flush draw, a flopped set, a bare flush draw maybe? I felt like if I bet-call or just bet all-in on the turn and he calls then I'm behind so often that it's not good so I decided to check, but looking at it now betting would have been much better than just checking there.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:14 PM   #605
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

i bet your loving the fact this thread is mentioned in the poker player magazine
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Old 08-28-2009, 05:09 AM   #606
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Wow! I'm glad I found this thread and thanks for doing this. It's great to read through the thought process of the more experienced players playing at a level I can relate to.

Did you find you were making more $$@10NL by targeting stacks or by winning more marginal situations?and

What about 25Nl as a comparison? Do players stack off as easy?

I'm about to start taking my shots @25Nl real soon(i hope) and rely on big showdown hands while $$ slowly trickles away without a monster flop/turn.... I'm comin around and almost winning 10NL after 50k Hands.. was -16BI after 35K hands and running real bad.

Now -2BI after some major gameplay adjustments and ignoring everything i did when buying deep (10$)at 5Nl that i crushed massively.

Just wondering how my game would carry over once i'm ready to take the leap since my 5nl strategy didn't do me much good for 10NL.


Thx.

Last edited by PokeherTee; 08-28-2009 at 05:11 AM. Reason: Gramm-err
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:10 AM   #607
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by ItsMyShow View Post
i bet your loving the fact this thread is mentioned in the poker player magazine
Explain/link please?
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:12 AM   #608
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Hiya mate - just got through 90% of this thread, but given up on the last few pages. Sad to say your video doesn't work on my laptop I get your comentary, which sounds good, but nothing else

Playing a little bit of 10NL, and this hand just came up. Should I be shoving the River, if I'm putting any more money in at all, so that I get value out of 99 or something?

And if he bets the Turn, are we shoving or calling, and then calling the River? I guess shoving prevents any tough decisions?


Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $10.00
MP: $7.42
CO: $6.89
BTN: $11.91
SB: $19.67

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with J Q
4 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1, SB requests TIME, SB calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.00) 2 Q 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.30, SB raises to $3, Hero calls $1.70

Turn: ($8.00) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($8.00) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $3.70, Hero calls $3.70

Spoiler:
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:21 AM   #609
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by gguk2008 View Post
Explain/link please?
basically in this months poker player mag they mentioned this thread and also mentioned 'UK's own Jack Wilcox' they also gave a link to this thread describing it as good cash game strat.
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:22 AM   #610
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by gguk2008 View Post
Hiya mate - just got through 90% of this thread, but given up on the last few pages. Sad to say your video doesn't work on my laptop I get your comentary, which sounds good, but nothing else

Playing a little bit of 10NL, and this hand just came up. Should I be shoving the River, if I'm putting any more money in at all, so that I get value out of 99 or something?

And if he bets the Turn, are we shoving or calling, and then calling the River? I guess shoving prevents any tough decisions?


Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $10.00
MP: $7.42
CO: $6.89
BTN: $11.91
SB: $19.67

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with J Q
4 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1, SB requests TIME, SB calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.00) 2 Q 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.30, SB raises to $3, Hero calls $1.70

Turn: ($8.00) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($8.00) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $3.70, Hero calls $3.70

Spoiler:
are you using VLC to watch the vid?
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:35 AM   #611
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

I can't believe they raked $1 from that pot....
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:44 AM   #612
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Not sure what VLC is - it opened as default in Nero and said I had to buy a codec. **** that.

And pluses and minuses regarding the Poker Player article. Nice for Jack to get some recognition, sucks that this thread is now going to be more widely known (than on a public internet forum)
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:51 AM   #613
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by gguk2008 View Post
Not sure what VLC is - it opened as default in Nero and said I had to buy a codec. **** that.

And pluses and minuses regarding the Poker Player article. Nice for Jack to get some recognition, sucks that this thread is now going to be more widely known (than on a public internet forum)
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

download that video player and open the video in that.

seemples!
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:53 AM   #614
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by gguk2008 View Post
Not sure what VLC is - it opened as default in Nero and said I had to buy a codec. **** that.

And pluses and minuses regarding the Poker Player article. Nice for Jack to get some recognition, sucks that this thread is now going to be more widely known (than on a public internet forum)
VLC is a media player that will play pretty much anything, its all I use anymore.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
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Old 08-29-2009, 02:05 PM   #615
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by superleeds90 View Post
basically in this months poker player mag they mentioned this thread and also mentioned 'UK's own Jack Wilcox' they also gave a link to this thread describing it as good cash game strat.
Ah it's a UK-based magazine and not US as i initially thought. So it's only in the magazine and not on their web page? But I agree, Jack's advice is great for small-stakes NLHE.
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Old 08-29-2009, 02:42 PM   #616
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Ta guys
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:56 PM   #617
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

NL25 graph so far ??

Just great topic and keep doing it because really help new players when someone from higher stakes play and explain how they beat the micros

GJ
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Old 08-30-2009, 01:26 AM   #618
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Hi Kackwilcox,

Been following this thread since the beginning and have watched all your videos.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. It has certainly opened up my eyes to some new concepts, I have been applying some of your 3B concepts as low as NL10 and was astonished to find that they work at the lower limits, you just have to pick the right spots.

I would like to make a request. Would you consider going back to NL10 and producing a video or two. I am interested to see what you would do differently at the lower limits.

Thanks heaps again, keep up the great work.

Chris
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Old 08-30-2009, 04:01 AM   #619
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by BitchiBee View Post
ok, I'm listening
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Old 08-30-2009, 04:17 AM   #620
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

cool thread. I'm going to have to follow this. nice work.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:07 AM   #621
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
using overbets to maximise vs opponents range...

ok, i saw someone earlier post something about how i might use different bet sizing to maximise. i think this is a pretty cool example. villain is a reg playing a few tables with general tag stats.

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (UTG): $16.90
CO: $8.75
BTN: $10.00
SB: $13.25
BB: $10.00

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with J 9
Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.30, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 3 5 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

again, i dont cbet this flop. i cant really represent anything, and it also hits villains button flatting range quite well. pocket pairs look good, A high hands look good, and a lot of small/ medium connectors have pairs/ gutshots. basically i get floated on this flop a lot if i cbet.

Turn: ($0.75) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, BTN calls $0.60

hit a sweet turn card and decide to extract some value from hands that villain checked back flop with. i think he checks back most of his range since he probably has some showdown value and he cant get value out of much by betting the flop. a lot of his range now has at least a decent draw, or is a pair+ a draw so i dont expect him to fold this turn much

River: ($1.95) J (2 players)
Hero bets $3.20, BTN calls $3.20

obv river the effective nuts, i expect to have the best hand here like 100% of the time and need to go to value town. i think a lot of villains here are either pair + missed draws, occasional 2 pair hands, and maybe overcards that has paired the jack (JT/ QJ type hands). my line looks really weird to him as i dont rep a whole lot so i expect to be called down quite lightly. therefore i go for an overbet... i think if villain has a decent pair like a JT hand/ 2pair he is calling an overbet just as frequently as a pot sized bet since theres not much i can really have based on how the hand has played

Spoiler:
Your line don't look that strange when you bet the 9 on the turn, cause 6,7 would have made straight and it's a possible holding.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:35 AM   #622
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

HI Jack! Just dropped by to say i enjoyed your video! I like your low variance/not pushing ever small edge style of play! Keep em coming, can┤t wait for the next one!
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:17 AM   #623
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMyShow View Post
i bet your loving the fact this thread is mentioned in the poker player magazine
lol tbh, i cant believe how much this thread took off. i was half expecting it to totally fail, and half expecting it to just be casually updated every week or so. if i had known it was going to be getting this many views, have this many pages, and be getting mentioned in magazines, id have put a lot more effort into it from the start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokeherTee View Post
Just wondering how my game would carry over once i'm ready to take the leap since my 5nl strategy didn't do me much good for 10NL.
.
1) i dont think you should have a set "strategy". it just doesnt make logical sense to do so since every opponent plays totally different and therefore you shouldnt have an independant way of playing.

2) you should worry more about trying to find good tables to sit at rather than a specific strategy. by good tables, i also mean good seats, so you have position on who you want. it might be more ego-boosting to beat regs, but realistically most of your money should be coming from fish. its maybe ignorant of me to assume, but i dont think it would be too hard to find 10nl tables that play weaker than some 5nl tables if you looked around the lobby/ joined a waiting list

Quote:
Originally Posted by gguk2008 View Post
Playing a little bit of 10NL, and this hand just came up. Should I be shoving the River, if I'm putting any more money in at all, so that I get value out of 99 or something?

And if he bets the Turn, are we shoving or calling, and then calling the River? I guess shoving prevents any tough decisions?


Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $10.00
MP: $7.42
CO: $6.89
BTN: $11.91
SB: $19.67

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with J Q
4 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1, SB requests TIME, SB calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.00) 2 Q 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.30, SB raises to $3, Hero calls $1.70

Turn: ($8.00) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($8.00) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $3.70, Hero calls $3.70
dont post results because is obviously quite influencing - your opinion of this hand would be totally different if he showed u AQ when u called on the river.

also you didnt tell me anything about your opponent, so it kind of hard to analyse since this hand is obviously super opponent specific as his range changes greatly on every street depending on various stats.

i am intrigued why you think that 99 (or any 1 pair hand worse than QJ) would a) check-raise the flop, and b) bet the river, and c) call a shove on the river
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:25 PM   #624
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Jack I would really like your take on the topic of ranges and decisions with the check/shove on the river line.

Coming from tournament play I'm not used to it because if somebody is there on the river I try to extract max value and if i have showdown value id check call or if it's air I never have FE for that move.

How do you handle that move in deep stack cash games? either for value or as a bluff?
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:52 PM   #625
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMAZ View Post
Hi Jackwilcox,

Been following this thread since the beginning and have watched all your videos.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. It has certainly opened up my eyes to some new concepts, I have been applying some of your 3B concepts as low as NL10 and was astonished to find that they work at the lower limits, you just have to pick the right spots.

I would like to make a request. Would you consider going back to NL10 and producing a video or two. I am interested to see what you would do differently at the lower limits.

Thanks heaps again, keep up the great work.

Chris
Hi Jackwilcox,

I do apologise for the typo in your name in my post above, I didn't spot it at the time of posting. Meant no disrespect.

Chris
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