hand 2 like i said i can bet but a flush draw is a ridiculously small part of his range. he is never winning a showdown so his only way to win is to make a flush. since i can sometimes be check/fold this flop in his eyes (if i have say QQ i may do, tho unlikely).

basically he has to bet to win because checking is -EV since he wont always make his flush and i wont always pay him off.

There isn't really much to say for the 1st hand since the villian is just sucha donk with his bet-sizing he really won't be getting full value if he has you beat like you mentioned since if he shove the river you probably are folding alot in that spot.

I really would 4bet in the 2nd hand abit more, like say to 9~ or so because i for $4.25 i think it isn't that horrible a call laying him a little over 1:2 by raising to $7.25. I wouldn't hate c-betting the flop too since i think JJ/QQ/KK c-bets there pretty much. Other than that pretty standard.

The 3rd hand probably can't be played too differently since you have a spewtard in the SB.

lol 4betting to 3x is terrible. i want to do it as a bluff sometimes too, and i dont want him to be totally priced out with his entire range. 2.5x lets him do sum spazzy stuff like flat when he shouldnt (as he did here) or shove when he shouldnt as well. 4betting to 3x is crazy, i did a post on 4betting i think in another thread somewhere.

i would never be cbetting the flop with JJ/QQ etc, by checking with hands like AQ and AK (as i would also do) it means that i have a more balanced range - i would be checking my entire range on this flop most likely

Not sure if I like Hand 1. I don't mind the steal, but no way I would call that 3bet with that hand preflop, even with position, with a hand like that.

You even stated yourself you aren't putting any money in after the flop if you don't flop huge, and bottom pair, no kicker ain't huge.

The turn is I think is really bad, as there isn't a lot of fold equity if he has a big hand.



Is this a normal line for you when your steals don't work? Not bashing, just trying to learn some things here.

cool thread

Why won't you cbet JJ/QQ etc?

Anyway i do feel that 2.5x just prices villian in that pretty much he would play his entire range?

well no because my value range is essentially AQ+ and TT+ against which hands such as KTs has about 30% if we are all in pre, but effectivally has negative implied odds when we see a flop (im never stacking off on K or T high flops without something that beats him).

so playing it profitably will be basically impossible, therefore 2.5x is fine.

if u try and work out how much fold equity u need as well for when u bluff, 2.5x gives u a good amount of fold equity, and u shud at least be thinking of encorporating it into your game.


and LOL wtf why would u bet QQ on an A high flop in a 4bet pot?? what is he going to call with thats beats us?? is a situation where we have to either bet or check our entire range, and i think checking everything is better than betting everything on an A high flop in 4bet pot out of position

But if you're checking your entire range and he does lead into you what would you be doing since your range wouldn't always connect. I think its just my donkey style of playing for wanting to lead almost always so i shan't carry on the debate.

As for the 4bet sizing i guess i didn't give it enough thought but i think villian would go into some sort of spasm even with 2.5x or 3x raise but i shan't debate about it since im a donk anyway.

I don't think any donk would call 24BB with garbage preflop. And like he said it helps balancing ranges easilier since it becomes a cheaper resteal.

24BB would be roughly 2.5x so you are disagreeing that villian won't spas out in certain spots?

do u play micros?

ive seen people call 3 bets with 26o 27o, 107o, j8o, etc

among other trash hands this is @ NL25 / NL50

Nice thread Jack!

we need updates

JACKWILCOX

linecheck plz =P

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $20.15
UTG: $25.00
CO: $31.05
BTN: $45.75

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with J 9
UTG raises to $0.75, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.50) A 5 A (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($7.00) 4 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN checks

River: ($7.00) 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $5, UTG folds, BTN raises to $43.50, Hero folds

fold pre flop.

as played i think river is a bit too big... think of the hands that villain likely has in this situation.. he is never checking turn with an ace unless is real ******ed. so his range on river is mainly air/ middling hands with showdown value (TT etc) therefore you might get him to spaz a bit with a tiny bet. you're not value betting against strong hands so theres no point in betting this big because QQ or whatever isnt calling.

as played... man this is pretty gross but i mean, u have to fold... i dont know what reads u have on UTG he played this hand pretty weird, but i dont think he is bluffing here often enough. kinda depends how fishy he is, but i guess he likely has some slowplayed boat

i havent played lately as much as i should have at all. i was trying to focus on having a good month at 2/4 during june as it was my 1st month playing 'full time' and at the end i was trying to break into the 3/6 games, and was also experimenting playing some heads up and PLO.

however, this month im going to try and play 5k hands a week at nl25/ 50. played 1,000 hands today, had a bit of a weird session, finished down like $7.


one thing im noticing is there are some spots which are super standard through small-stakes and mid-stakes but arent in the micro's. e.g say cut off opens to 3x and i am on the button with JJ. usually this is a standard 3bet and if u get 4bet, u 5bet shove. however, i have lost a lot of money with JJ in these sort of situations throughout nl10 and nl25, because i people are never really 4bet bluffing/ stacking off with TT etc.

another thing im noticing a lot is people are stupidly nitty with value betting the river. i think a lot of the reason people experience such negative non-showdown lines is because of not value betting the river thinly enough and taking top pair hands to showdown all the time.
heres an example from today to illustrate (have been trying to keep my eyes open for a good example and this is one of those)


Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $51.70
SB: $4.75
BB: $15.85
Hero (CO): $55.75

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with J Q
Hero raises to $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, SB calls $0.65, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($3.00) 9 J 2 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2.25, BTN calls $2.25, SB calls $2.25, BB folds

Turn: ($9.75) 5 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5.25, BTN calls $5.25, SB calls $1.75 all in

turn is possibly a bit thin. i was mainly betting for protection vs all the draws out there (most people are peeling the flop in position with hands like KQ/KT/ hearts etc). i can also still get value from JT and possibly a stubborn 9x. or a 9x of hearts at least anyway.

River: ($22.00) 7 (3 players - 1 is all in)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Final Pot: $22.00
BTN shows A J (a pair of Jacks - Ace kicker)
SB shows 5 Q (a pair of Fives)
Hero shows J Q (a pair of Jacks)
BTN wins $6.65
BTN wins $14.30
(Rake: $1.05)

AJ should be an easy value bet on the river there. i am likely to be suspicious of a bet because of all the draws missing (since someone is all in though im unlikely to call with QJ because i get to see his cards anyway), however he should still be betting here because he has me beat when i check this river almost 100% of the time. checking back loses so much value, and i dont know about others but whenever i check back AJ in a spot like this and see QJ i always think "ah man i could have so got value there". maybe its a spot where he thinks "omg what if he has T8 and is trapping?" well thats so unlikely, and without reads, im never checking anything that has value on the river anyway purely because i would expect to get looked up light (due to the draws missing also)

so yea, i think people should slow down a little with making their decisions, everyone seems to snap-click buttons at nl25, and think a little bit about whether there is any value in betting, because by value betting a little more thinly in common spots like this you can win a lot more than you might expect. and obviously if your opponent folds a worse hand on the river, it doesnt matter, but at least you gave yourself the opportunity to make a little extra.

good opportunities to gain an extra bet on the river is when lots of draws miss, you have top pair/ overpair, and expect your opponent to have a weaker top pair, or a middle pair. people love to catch bluffs, so give them a chance to think they are doing so

Can you show any examples of being check raised on the flop when you are the PFR / your thought processes and how you handle the situation?

If you have draws what you do / if you have TPTK what you do and what you can expect on later streets.

What's the meaning of a check raise from a Fishy loose player vs a reg who runs Tag

I currently play 25NL and I am a bit lost when I run into those situations. Thanks for all your advice its great!

1. Check min raise on flop is top pair no kicker, or middle pair. If they actually raise you to a legitimate size, it is all player dependent, even with top pair, top kicker. Against an unknown, I probably call and fold the turn to any aggression.

2. Check raise from a fishy player is usually a middle pair, draw, or two pair. Vs. a tag, it is usually overpairs, sets, and sometimes draws. I mainly try to stay out of the TAG's way, except for set mining.

set mining is bad

Perhaps, you should 'elaborate' on this a little before someone takes it to heart.

to make a profit on your set mining you need to make 8x your investment when you hit.

so at nl25, assume raises to $0.75, if you call, you need to make $6 from them in order to break even. this means creating a $12 pot.

if we call and get heads up, the pot will be $1.60 (assume 5 cents rake). so to get that into a $12 is going to be pretty tough, and we have to make, on average, a $12 pot EVERY time we hit


set mining in position isnt as bad as out of position, because you can represent more hands than sets by raising the flop/ turn, however i still doubt anyone can show a profit by calling with 22 trying to flop a set

Yup, agreed, especially 6max where people raise very light, you'll probably seldom win a big pot when you hit (and I experience it every day).

still :

This makes no sense, if you value bet / get called then the hand won't be counted for NSD$W. Same if you bring TP to showdown (and win/lose).

the point is that by value betting thin on the river you will get a lot of folds. admittedly these are hands you would beat in a showdown anyway, which is why your showdown winnings look good. however, you will get people who will try to bluff catch etc and call you down, thereby increasing your showdown winnnings when they do call.

in the example i gave with AJ, if he bets and i fold his non-showdown winnings go up. if he value bets and i make a hero call, his non-showdown stays the same, but his showdown winnings go up more than they would have otherwise. as these hands add up, you find yourself increasing your winrate by making value bets on the end

But surely the most value you can get on the river is by making an enticing bet say between 1/4 and 1/2 the pot. You can either get called or a spazzy shove over the top type move.

this doesnt really take into account raising your smaller PP early postion c-betting and taking down the flop. Wouldnt that help some in requiring the $12 pots? i only play 10nl atm and it seems that set mining is getting harder for sure but it still works fine. So for me i still do it alot depending on raise sizes and stacks of course.