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Old 07-12-2017, 11:43 PM   #1
Drumao
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New and trying to learn.

Hello, I'm new and trying to learn.

I was trying to analyse a hand I played but I'm not sure how I count my outs in the flop. I'm trying to see if I should've bet there but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. If anyone could help me figure it out I would appreciate it very much. Should I consider every possible hand my opponent can have?


PokerStars - 15/30 Ante 4 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 65.9 BB (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
SB: 44.2 BB (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
BB: 26.87 BB (VPIP: 54.55, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
Hero (UTG): 105.23 BB
CO: 57.8 BB (VPIP: 72.73, PFR: 45.45, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 11)

5 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.17 BB) Hero has J J

Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, fold, BB raises to 5 BB, Hero calls 2 BB, CO calls 2 BB

Flop: (16.17 BB, 3 players) 4 T Q
BB bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, fold

Turn: (24.17 BB, 2 players) 5
BB bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

River: (32.17 BB, 2 players) 6
BB bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

BB shows A Q (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 43%, Flop 88%, Turn 95%)
Hero mucks J J (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 57%, Flop 12%, Turn 5%)
BB wins 40.17 BB
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Old 07-13-2017, 12:45 PM   #2
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

11 hand sample of stats is essentially worthless. So...

Generically, what range of hands do you assign an unknown from the BB when he raises an unknown UTG ?
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:04 PM   #3
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

I don't know what you mean with assign an unknown.
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:19 PM   #4
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

The BB is an unknown player to you. You only have 11 hand data base....so you can not have an accurate read on the type of player you are up against. He maybe be tight/loose, aggressive/passive......

Since you do not "know" the type of player you are up against, you need to make a range for a 'typical' opponent at your level (4NL).

What range of hands would a typical 4NL player raise from the BB after an UTG raise and one caller in between?
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:48 PM   #5
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

AJ+, 77+ ?

I'm really new and kinda guessing. But I think I get what you are saying. If I figure this out I can use it to know what hand my opponent might have right? Because then I can use those hands to get my outs.
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:53 PM   #6
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

AJ+, 77+

Are these the hands you would raise from the BB knowing you will be out of position throughout the hand against a UTG raiser?
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Old 07-13-2017, 02:37 PM   #7
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Ok QQ+ and AQs+.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:16 PM   #8
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

How does JJ stack up against the new range above?

This is a link to Equilab software for helping to find equity %.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:22 PM   #9
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Meanwhile: combinations (how many hands fit a category)

AA 6 (sh, sd, sc, hd, hc, dc)
KK 6
QQ 6
AKs 4
AKo 12
AQs 4
38 combinations of your new range
You are ahead of how many of the 38 hands on the flop?
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:32 PM   #10
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumao View Post
Ok QQ+ and AQs+.
As an FYI, I will eventually ask you to rethink a wider range for Villain here because Hero open raises the Hijack seat ( two off the button) and possibly on a Steal Attempt. But for now, let's work with QQ+, AQs+
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:19 PM   #11
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
Meanwhile: combinations (how many hands fit a category)

AA 6 (sh, sd, sc, hd, hc, dc)
KK 6
QQ 6
AKs 4
AKo 12
AQs 4
38 combinations of your new range
You are ahead of how many of the 38 hands on the flop?
My hand beats 28 of them. Not sure how to proceed now.

I'm sorry but I'm really new.

Last edited by Drumao; 07-13-2017 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:02 PM   #12
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
Meanwhile: combinations (how many hands fit a category)

AA 6 (sh, sd, sc, hd, hc, dc)
KK 6
QQ 6 (now 3)
AKs 4
AKo 12
AQs 4
38 combinations of your new range
You are ahead of how many of the 35 hands on the flop?
try again
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:05 PM   #13
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Did you download and install Equilab?
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:31 PM   #14
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

A side conversation (lesson) here, Drumao.

Preflop, the CO (person to your left) called your preflop raise. Remember when I said that our 11 hand database was not enough to help with a read? It this case with this CO...I would definitely use the 11 hands as a basis to make a read on the likely hands he called with PF.

He has played 72% of the hands...and of those, he has raised PF almost 50% of the time! Fish on a heater....or have we found an aggro-maniac?

So we can assign this guy a VERY wide range PF.
22+, A2s+, A2o+ K2s+, K2o, Q2s+, Q6o+, J2s+, J7o+...etc All the no gap, one gap, two gap suited connectors. Huge range........EXCEPT:

He will have what is known as a capped range. There is a top limit (cap) on the hands he calls with. Otherwise, he raises.... or folds. KK he raises, 93o he folds. It is the middle of his range that he is playing here.....and obviously, the flop missed him.

Understand a capped range?
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:56 PM   #15
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
A side conversation (lesson) here, Drumao.

Preflop, the CO (person to your left) called your preflop raise. Remember when I said that our 11 hand database was not enough to help with a read? It this case with this CO...I would definitely use the 11 hands as a basis to make a read on the likely hands he called with PF.

He has played 72% of the hands...and of those, he has raised PF almost 50% of the time! Fish on a heater....or have we found an aggro-maniac?

So we can assign this guy a VERY wide range PF.
22+, A2s+, A2o+ K2s+, K2o, Q2s+, Q6o+, J2s+, J7o+...etc All the no gap, one gap, two gap suited connectors. Huge range........EXCEPT:

He will have what is known as a capped range. There is a top limit (cap) on the hands he calls with. Otherwise, he raises.... or folds. KK he raises, 93o he folds. It is the middle of his range that he is playing here.....and obviously, the flop missed him.

Understand a capped range?
This just helped me a ton
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:45 PM   #16
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Re: New and trying to learn.

Yes i downloaded equilab.

I mean't to say 18 I miss typed the 2.

Am i doing this right?

https://gyazo.com/5b42738b1c0d41683756a5de604fd2f4

Last edited by Drumao; 07-13-2017 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:48 PM   #17
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
A side conversation (lesson) here, Drumao.

Preflop, the CO (person to your left) called your preflop raise. Remember when I said that our 11 hand database was not enough to help with a read? It this case with this CO...I would definitely use the 11 hands as a basis to make a read on the likely hands he called with PF.

He has played 72% of the hands...and of those, he has raised PF almost 50% of the time! Fish on a heater....or have we found an aggro-maniac?

So we can assign this guy a VERY wide range PF.
22+, A2s+, A2o+ K2s+, K2o, Q2s+, Q6o+, J2s+, J7o+...etc All the no gap, one gap, two gap suited connectors. Huge range........EXCEPT:

He will have what is known as a capped range. There is a top limit (cap) on the hands he calls with. Otherwise, he raises.... or folds. KK he raises, 93o he folds. It is the middle of his range that he is playing here.....and obviously, the flop missed him.

Understand a capped range?
Yes i think I got it, so when I'm dealing with this type of aggressive player and he calls like he did do I just cbet or what's the best approach?

Also I'm playing at the lowest stakes available this guy could just be bad, is this type of player seen in higher stakes?

Another thing I have a hard time with is thinking of all of this in the few sec i have to make my decision. Is the only way to improve this aspect just to get more experienced until I recognize patterns and get more familiar or can I do something else to help?
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:14 PM   #18
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Re: New and trying to learn.

As a new player whos just been going through all this i think i can help, its taken me a while and alot of hard lessons but things finally feel like iam moving in good direction.

I think 1st best thing to do is get an understanding for the basics and develop a basic strategy. Best done through searching subjects on you tube, on here in best of two + two and other usefull threads http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...thread-340027/
Also money put into a good book will help alot id say grinders manual has been immense help to me putting together a strategy.

Next id say learn to deal with tilt this has been my biggest problem chasing my losses i handle bad beats good until so many happen in a row. just have triggers set in place to stop and calm and come back next day!
This really has been my worst enemy at tables.

Also money into a tracker would be usefull more for reviewing yourself, as at low stakes i find the fish you want take advantage of are never on tables day in day out they come and go. so you have put them in there relative fish boxes quick this becomes easier the more you do it.

then i would say once you have a basic understanding and strategy put some volume in but before each session review a couple of last sessions hands, go through them with your strategy and see if you were making correct plays according to it, and use equilab to help here to checking equity and ranges in situations where your unsure.

This is where iam up to now and its amazing you think you played a good session then check a few hands and see you could of played better! I also think it helps zone your mind in to being ready play poker after.

Then next steps iam looking at once i feel comfortable with this basic strat is to build on it work on things like 3betting oop play and lots more.

I do truly feel if i had stuck to this from start and really put effort in straight away i would be doing pretty good by now. but iam not going lie its hard work and not as fun as just playing poker, but fall into this trap like i did so many times an you wont really get any where fast. you will have few good runs but you wont be able keep them going.

hope this helps anyway gl on your journey
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:17 PM   #19
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Re: New and trying to learn.

Oh forgot on reviewing hands i lacked a lot of confidence for ages on hows best do this, i think watching a lot of coaching videos help which you can find on you tube an this post here helped too http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...hands-1581258/
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:43 PM   #20
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Re: New and trying to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
AA 6 (sh, sd, sc, hd, hc, dc)
KK 6
QQ 6 (now 3)
AKs 4
AKo 12
AQs 4
38 combinations of your new range
You are ahead of how many of the 35 hands on the flop?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumao View Post
I mean't to say 18 I miss typed the 2.
AA 6
KK 6
QQ 3
AQs 4
19 hands behind
AKs 4
AKo 12
16 hands ahead

(With equiLab it doesn't matter which seat you use when evaluating equity but go ahead and put your cards in UTG and villain choices as the BB)

Now with Equilab using the card selection tool (second button over), put in your hand and AK for villain and run 4 T Q as the flop and hit evaluate. Then do the same evaluation with AK (for back door flush draw) as well as AK.

What is the equity you have when ahead?

Do the same experiment with the hands you are behind. What is your equity?

Clear all villain hands and using the first button, select the range of hands button and click AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo. Evaluate. What is your equity?
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:50 PM   #21
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Re: New and trying to learn.

(Still same tight range for villain)

4 T Q

We have two jacks. Another jack falls on the turn.

Don't you feel invincible now!!!!!

Except what......
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:19 PM   #22
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Re: ***** Official Dumb Questions Thread ****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumao View Post
Yes i think I got it, so when I'm dealing with this type of aggressive player and he calls like he did do I just cbet or what's the best approach?

If we are talking only about the CO now in the hand, you have a fairly good idea of the range this guy is playing. A small portion will have hit this flop. Hands like QTs, KJo, 98s or TT were all most likely raised PF. Maybe he has a set of 4's.....but that can be the only super strong hand. Next would be a naked Q with a draw like Q8. But think of the entirety of range...and you are way ahead. "Usually" when you believe you are ahead, you should bet. And I would bet here hoping he has a Tx or a weak draw.



Also I'm playing at the lowest stakes available this guy could just be bad, is this type of player seen in higher stakes?

Advice, stop thinking you are playing with bad players.
Online, mostly players are at least OK. Confirm someone is bad after you have played a few hundred hands with them. Thinking you are better than another before you really know this...is a recipe to lose chips fast. Instead of think "bad player" think "he's loose passive" or "weak tight folder". Those labels are MUCH more helpful for you to use to beat them.


Another thing I have a hard time with is thinking of all of this in the few sec i have to make my decision. Is the only way to improve this aspect just to get more experienced until I recognize patterns and get more familiar or can I do something else to help?

Yep. Honestly, play the smallest stakes you can find for 10,000 hands and reevaluate where you are. You may stay at 2NL for a while longer....or be ready to tackle 5NL or 10NL. You mostly will lose a bit playing the micros because the rake is high and variance is higher*. Consider this your training fee and you won't get stressed about your dwindling bankroll. (a moderator here calls it a training budget instead of a bankroll...and I tend to agree with that.) Oh...and study hands,
post hands here and read all you can in books or here. Doug Polk and I started on 2+2 around the same time and he wasn't very good in the beginning either. Better than me, but I still suck. Him....not so much.
variance is higher*

I have a theory about micro limits. The skill level gap between the best player and worst is much larger in the micros than anywhere else. Once you get to the upper levels (I mostly played 100NL or 200NL games on Full Tilt before Black Friday), the players were generally all pretty good. A few sharks, a few whales.....and a whole bunch of grinders. We were all just pushing the chips around the table until a whale sat.

At the micros, you may have true beginners mixed in with a stable living in a Thailand (or any third world/cheaper place to live) grind house. The grinders don't need to make a ton to live...but they need to win $10/day and can do this playing 2NL for hours at a time. You also get grinders like me that may be working on a new "idea" and want to test where the cost is lower. Or I'm giving a lesson and suggesting options to the student who doesn't have the hand reading skill I have. Or a down on his luck shark...we ALL experience downswings (swongs). Any number of reasons....but remember: the table is NOT full of beginners in any sense of the word!
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:37 PM   #23
Drumao
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Re: New and trying to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
AA 6
KK 6
QQ 3
AQs 4
19 hands behind
AKs 4
AKo 12
16 hands ahead

(With equiLab it doesn't matter which seat you use when evaluating equity but go ahead and put your cards in UTG and villain choices as the BB)

Now with Equilab using the card selection tool (second button over), put in your hand and AK for villain and run 4 T Q as the flop and hit evaluate. Then do the same evaluation with AK (for back door flush draw) as well as AK.

What is the equity you have when ahead?

Do the same experiment with the hands you are behind. What is your equity?

Clear all villain hands and using the first button, select the range of hands button and click AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo. Evaluate. What is your equity?
Ad Kd - 71.31%
As Ks - 67.58%
As Kh - 71.31%

QQ+,AKs,AKo - 41.11%
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:39 PM   #24
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Re: New and trying to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
(Still same tight range for villain)

4 T Q

We have two jacks. Another jack falls on the turn.

Don't you feel invincible now!!!!!

Except what......
Oh if i get a jack on the turn i still am only 43.55%.
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:40 PM   #25
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Re: New and trying to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
Meanwhile: combinations (how many hands fit a category)

AA 6 (sh, sd, sc, hd, hc, dc)
KK 6
QQ 6 (now 3)
AKs 4
AKo 12
AQs 4 (GAWK....NOW 3)
38 combinations of your new range
You are ahead of how many of the 38 hands on the flop?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumao View Post
Yes i downloaded equilab.

I mean't to say 18 I miss typed the 2.

Am i doing this right? Better than me
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
AA 6
KK 6
QQ 3
AQs 4 (Blah....3)
19 hands behind (18 is correct)
AKs 4
AKo 12
16 hands ahead
.

Last edited by King Spew; 07-13-2017 at 11:47 PM.
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