Hello heehaww.

You are right, it is harder to get flush than Nil Poker(combination) and like you mentioned this is added value (more fun,less nitty..).I think it is cool how you think out of the box with names of this combination (basically to me, it does not matter how people will start calling this combination). I believe it is the easiest and the most understandable way to name new nil poker combination: Nil Poker(Nil=nil card; Poker=most people think of poker as 4 same cards).

All nil cards look the same(no kickers; the easiest way to understand for poker begginers), like the nil card in the video. For example: if there are four nil cards on board (Nil Hold´em), that means split pot. It also means split pot in this situation: 2 players have each one nil card and there are 3 nil cards on the board(in Nil Hold´em),.. But yes, Nil Poker can be played in the way you mentioned, too.
Thank you for taking your time and writing your post. It means a lot to me.

I'm curious, blackpoker - do you have a group of friends who play this game regularly (or at all) for money? If so, do you also play other poker games?

IMO playing what the cool kids are playing or running to the new shiny object takes away from the mission. I know that everyone in here isn't a full-time player, but the object of poker is to make money, whether it's $200 after a monthly trip to a casino or six figures a year.

For most of us poker is a social event and/or an interesting challenge, but ultimately, as the saying goes, money is how we keep score. When I hear about the next big thing I start running down a list in my mind:

How much variance?

How much work would it take to learn?

Is there a big enough player pool to make it viable?

What is the opportunity cost? Would it take too much time away from study, or from another game where I could win more?


I would want to read comments from people that played it before I even considered another variant.

No one thinks of poker as same 4 cards.
Never in my life have I seen someone flip over 55 with 55 on board and say "I HAVE POKER!"

4 of the same card is called 4 of a kind or quads.

I think it should be called a Null Set (math term, though "Set" may be confused with the normal hold'em meaning of "set").
Since poker is a five-card game, you need to consider kickers to break a tie.
For the null set, a nil card should be the best kicker, then a 2 is the second best, 3 is third best, and so on.
So 2-nil is potentially more powerful than A-nil as a starting hand.

So if I have Ace-Nil and my opponent has King-Nil on a board of N-N-N-2-7, it's a split pot? We're only using four cards to make a poker hand?

I think it's probably better if the Ace kicker counts there. Not only to make the hands use 5 cards, but to avoid what I suspect will happen if those kickers don't count. Namely, I suspect there will be too many split pots. Also, the incentive to play ace-nil and king-nil will diminish (since you're mostly hoping for a split pot or to win with top-pair-no-kicker), and the hand NN - the most frequent preflop hand - might become too strong (not as a preflop all-in, but in a normal pot), making other hands less playable.

I actually never heard of that, but if that's true then yes the hand name makes sense.

I actually will try this game with some friends. My friends hardly ever play poker, so this would be a partial equalizer since I'd be new to this game. I ordered a deck that includes 4 jokers, 4 elevens, 4 twelves and 4 thirteens. We can remove 3 of those and treat them all as Nil cards.

Hm, that opens the possibility of having differently ranked Nil cards to make for fewer ties in the event of two people making a Nil Poker.

Ohh I like this idea, that adds value to otherwise trash hands like 2N. It would make AN unplayable but so what, plenty of other aces are already played.

In Germany four of a kind are also called poker, although it is fairly uncommon nowadays. Mainly used by older live players.

Some stats:
- 20.87% of boards will contain exactly 2 N's.
- 4.59% of boards will contain exactly 3 N's.

In 9max:
- In 30.12% of hands, at least one player will be dealt NN.
- In 3.63% of hands, at least 2 players will.
- In 5.34% of hands, the board will have exactly 2 N's and at least one player will have NN.

The other thing I like about this is that it makes 5 nils worth more than 4 nils. As for naming 4 nils, as a math lover I do like "null set", but imo a better official name would be "Nil Set". I think that's better than the other two names I suggested previously. Maybe we'd call 5 nils a "nil flush", which would technically just be a type of nil set.

I'm starting to question whether ranking four nils greater than a flush is a good idea (and I'm not sure about straight either). Earlier I liked the idea because of the added value of playing nil hands. However, I'm not sure the inflated ranking changes the value much. If a board contains three nils, the Nil Set can't lose except to a higher nilset or, if the board pairs, to quads. Even if the board only has 2 nils, it will be hard for a flush to happen.

I think beta-testing the game might be the best way to decide about the ranking.

heh, a player I play live with got berated in chat online by some Russian when his quad queens lost to our guy's straight flush, saying "how did i loose, i had poker"

Hello VBAces.
To tell you the truth, I played Nil Poker couple of times (Nil Hold´em cashgame for money; small buy-in). Actually I had good knowledge and predictions of how it will be played,… even before I played it.

I would not consider playing poker(52-card deck) if I would have possibility to allways play Nil Poker instead of poker (52-card deck). I know I am probably subjective(but I am really trying to think objective). After playing Nil Poker for the first time, I did this comparison: I want to go to some destination, I do not see a reason why would I go by foot(poker(52-card deck), if I can use bicycle(Nil Poker).

I did a lot of reseraches about evolution of poker in general, poker variants, I played really a lot of poker(52-card deck)… and everything goes in the way of:
Nil Poker – The Future of Poker. Golden age of poker will be back. (I will make a video about this one day in near future and explained it a lot better).

Please do not understand me wrong, I have still a lot to learn, improve,… with nil poker. But it is not hard for me, because I like to learn.

I used to play a lot of texas hold´em (mostly online). SNG – Heads Ups (turbos; not hyper turbos) are my favourite. I allmost finished college(entrepreneurship) now, but playing poker actually fund my college activites and more (I was playing 30s and 60s on pokerstars), I was getting pretty good amount of money couple of years back.

Recently I quit seriously playing poker, as I do not have big skill edge(as I used to have) vs average player, meaning I can not make good monthly paycheck anymore (I can still make little amount of money but it is not worth the effort in my case anymore) .The people, who are playing poker are getting better on average every year (harder to make money on average every year, untill ...).There are a lot of people who have done the same(good players) as I did and this trend will continue… Now, I play poker only recreational, from time to time.

Hello, Poker Clif. You think very constructive. I like it.

I have played Nil Poker couple times, so I will try to answer your questions.

How much variance?

Less variance than in poker (52-card deck). I am 100 percent sure of that. I can not gave you exact percent of how much less variance, because I had not played even close enough Nil Poker games(that is considered good statistical number) to say exact number for sure. I will give pure prediction now(might be wrong with this, but I do not think I am wrong; backed up by some calculations and because I played really a lot of poker(52-card deck)): If person would play a lot of volume online (not poker tournaments) at nil poker(if this will be possible in the future), it is possible the minus days for very good players are close to impossible, while in poker ((52-card deck)losing poker days are pretty common to every good player). How cool is that.

How much work would it take to learn?

I do not think a lot more work needs to be done if you are good poker player(52-card deck). Basically this: If something was considered bad move in poker (52-card deck), it is considered even more bad move in nil poker(pot odds,…).For example: If somebody wants to know the percent to complete flush draw in Nil Poker, just multiply the percent number you know in poker(52-card deck) by 0.8 and this shows you approx. percent of outs in Nil Poker.

Is there a big enough player pool to make it viable?

I believe it is. Maybe not yet, but in next couple of years for sure. Actually to me it is not question if, but when people will start playing Nil Poker. I do believe poker (52-card deck) will became unplayable(unprofitable) in max 7 years(probably sooner) as online poker. Couple of years after that live poker will have same destiny. I know a lot of people agree with this prediction(not Nil Poker prediction, but prediction about poker future in general).

What is the opportunity cost? Would it take too much time away from study, or from another game where I could win more?

Not a lot of additional work needs to be done if you are good poker player(52-card deck).Allmost none opportunity cost. I am sure that profit will be the biggest in nil poker (vs other poker games).


Hopefully, some other people will play it soon(members of this forum), so they will be able to answer your questions, too.

Thank you for your constructive thinking again, Poker Clif.

Hello, SetofJacks. Thank you for taking your time and writting your post.

In my country(Slovenia) and in some other countries, everybody talks about poker (4 same cards), I thought that everybody else on planet say the same also. But I guess I was wrong. So, yes there is probably some better name for nil poker(combination). I actually like name Null Set, but I think it can be too easily confused in the way you mentioned (poker begginers will confuse it too easily).

I actually like the nil poker(combination)´s kicker idea now that has been discussed more, than no kicker idea (I just hope it is not too complicated for begginer players to understand). Actually I am positively amazed, that you come up with your kickers strenght(N,2,3,..). I would probably never come up with this idea(option), so I am really thankful for that (making the most perfect poker variant: correlation skills vs luck,…). It can be played with your kicker strenght or the »common« kicker strenght. I think they are both good ways to play nil poker. Currently can not decide which one is better.

Thank you again for really nice post. I appreciate it a lot, SetofJacks.

Hello, heehaww. Thank you for writting your post. I think all the posts you wrote here are very constructive and smart.

I actually like the nil poker(combination)´ kicker option after being discussed.

In my country(Slovenia), we say poker in the way I mentioned. I believe in some other european countries do the same.But yes, I understand your concerns, I actually like yours Quad Nils or something simillar to this(more people will have quads, even if Nil Quads are easier to get; and I think the name quads is easy to understand).

Cool that you will try Nil Poker, but please do not crush at Nil Poker your friends too much with poker skills. They are still your friends. GL at game and please feel free to share us how Nil Poker home game went(feelings, opinions,…).
I like how you made Nil Poker cards out of some different cards. When I first played Nil Poker I bought two identical card decks. Then, I picked 13 cards from one deck and made them Nil Cards by marking them (color them).Then I add those 13 Nil Cards to other poker card deck.

I currently can not decide which Nil poker (combination)´s kicker ranking is better: yours("ordinary" )or the TheSetofJack´s(poster).People can play Nil Poker in the way they want it(it is cool everbody has a lot of options). I love how you people are trying to make the perfect poker game.

Thank you for writting to this thread, heehaww.

Hello, Faustfan.

Thank you for letting me know what word poker means in german. I am from Slovenia and we also say poker in the way you mentioned. But, yes I understand concerns about the name. I currently think Quad Nils is good name. Or something simmilar to this.

Thank you for stopping by in this thread.

Hello, heehaww.

Thank you for posting stats, I actually came to same numbers(nil cards on boards). But I did not calculate exact 9max stats(in the way you did). Thank you for that.

I still prefer the name you mentioned Quad Nils(very simple name) or something simillar.

I belive it is good value to rank Nil Poker(combination) greater than flush. I understand your concerns, there would not be a lot of times flush vs nil poker(combination). Some simple logic that I think it is true: People who for example called big preflop raise with NN they deserve to win a pot if they will hit Nil Poker(combination) or they probably need to bluff(or maybe fold). Nil Cards on board will probably cause distraction and some fear too(people will just have to bet and protect their pairs,.. or bluff).There is more than 50 percent chance flop will contain at least one nil card.

Like you said it is hard to predict.

I have to thank you again that you take your valuable time and participating in this thread. I am really thankful for that, heehaww.

How is this thread still going?

If I had an idea like this and thought that it could possibly work the last thing I would do is write about it in a public forum unless you have some kind of copyright on it..

That posting shows some kind of ignorance from somebody who probably has neve played poker outside of North America.

Calling quads "poker" isn't uncommon among older live players in Western Europe and apparently pretty standard at least in some places in Eastern Europe. I've heard the term used countless times, especially in home games with old school players.

actually, in Poland (and I think in Czech and Slovakia as well) "poker" means "straight flush"

Hello, redlineftw.

You have a point. I have »protected« this game in the best way I could (in my opinion) before publicly speaking of Nil Poker. My "protection" does not change these:everybody can play Nil Poker however they want and everybody who will consider playing Nil Poker(vs poker(52-card deck)) will not pay a dime more if they choose to play Nil Poker instead of poker(52-card deck).

I think it is very cool that some people here started writting to this thread very constructive suggestions, opinions and much more. I want to learn, know the most I can about Nil Poker and listen to smart people here (some people here I consider very smart), before the game will be released to public with online-app.

Thank you for stopping by in this thread, redlineftw.

Hello, madlex.

I would like to thank you, for making the term »poker«(in which countries is used,..) a lot easier to understand for me and all the other posters.

I really appreciate that you took your time and explained it very well, madlex. Thank you.

WHY TO LOVE NIL POKER #1 a.k.a. NIL POKER – THE FUTURE OF POKER #1

Theory: PERSON WITH THE GREATEST POKER SKILLS IN THE WORLD IS NOT KNOWN TO PUBLIC

TRUE OR FALSE? Something to think about...

Poker(52-card deck) has really small advantage (good vs bad players) and huge variance (really huge; more than most people think).

For example, you play tournament (with a lot of players;poker(52-card deck));big buyin, so there will be probably a lot of good players. There will be really a lot of coinflip situations(50 vs 50) for every one(poker pros too), so what I am saying is that it is impossible to win tournament if you do not get super lucky overall. You will sooner or later need to have super amount of luck to finish in money(bad beats, cracks are included;even not getting cracked with for example kk vs a3, 2 times in a row preflop is around 50 percent chance to win both times with kk). So with normal amount of luck, you can not win tournament. All the poker pros(publicly known) were at some point of their career super lucky. They have had super lucky streak of tournaments at one point of career. Even if you play a lot of tournaments, it is more possible that you will lose all of your chips with bad beat, crack,…, than to possibly win tournament. Those things have probably happened to you(a lot of bad beats, cracks ,.. in a lot of tournaments, but it is actually normal for this things to happend(it takes really a lot of luck for those things to not happened) in poker(52-card deck).

It is allmost the same thing if we talk high stakes cashgames(very big buy-in; poker(52-card deck)). A lot of good players play those, but some are just out of planet lucky at least at one point of their career.

So, there will allways be players that will be super lucky(small percent) and players with »normal« amount of luck and players who are super unlucky(small percent).

Please do not understand me wrong. All the poker pro players(known in public) play very good poker, but there are a lot of people who play at least the same good poker too and they are not publicly known poker pros (and not making a lot of money, because they do not have super lucky streaks).

For example, some random person hits a lotto ticket, but that does not mean that he is professional lotto player or that he knows how to hit lotto with his skills. That just means that he just had a lot of luck.

To conclude all what I am saying: There is great possibility that a person with the greatest poker skills in the world is not known to public (with normal amount of luck you can not make it to the richies: 7 figures). I think it is pretty cool that we actually can find this person (possibly in the future). With Nil Poker...

Please read carefully what I wrote before commenting to this THEORY, as I am not planning to answer trolling posts.

It's not too hard finding the best player in nil poker because there won't be many playing it.

Your arguments continue to falsely equate NLHE="poker". There are already other common poker variants that have lower variance and higher skill edges, including when compared to "Nil" poker. So why switch to a special deck when such games are already available with a standard one?

Also, a big reason NLHE is the most popular game is BECAUSE of the high variance and the excitement it generates, and the chance for anyone to sometimes win big.

Why do you think this is bad?

There's a reason that there is not a big market for gambling at chess. A good gambling game requires a significant luck component or people won't gamble at it. Kind of by definition.