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KK vs AA KK vs AA

11-26-2014 , 07:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunblade
In their half defense, those above situations happen only about once every earth extinction level event
Yeah, in the way that quads > boat = ELE. Nits shoving over nits happens every day. The point is, 'never fold KK pre' is bad advice, since there are rare situations when it's correct to do it and as we know, you see a lot of unusual situations if you play a lot of poker.
KK vs AA Quote
11-26-2014 , 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yenomez
I don't get why we are folding AKo if we are sigh calling AKs espically in this spot.
AKs and QQ have >40% equity vs QQ+/AK.
AKo does not.

A couple of percent of equity can make a fair bit of difference to your EV in 360bb pots.
KK vs AA Quote
11-26-2014 , 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokes
AKs and QQ have >40% equity vs QQ+/AK.
AKo does not.

A couple of percent of equity can make a fair bit of difference to your EV in 360bb pots.
Am I running this wrong in pokerstove?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.586% 34.22% 00.37% 7030905 75702.00 { AdKd }
Hand 1: 65.414% 65.05% 00.37% 13365339 75702.00 { QQ+ }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.858% 30.48% 00.38% 6263357 77250.00 { AdKs }
Hand 1: 69.142% 68.77% 00.38% 14129791 77250.00 { QQ+ }
KK vs AA Quote
11-26-2014 , 09:05 AM
Ah here we go:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 78295380 89232168.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 174740892 89232168.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.904% 22.62% 19.28% 32535636 27736416.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 58.096% 38.81% 19.28% 55825068 27736416.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

In this case it's calling 3.48 to win 3.85. I don't think 41% cuts it here either way. You're only getting 1:1.1 here - don't you need about $8 in the pot to make this worth it with AKs?
KK vs AA Quote
11-26-2014 , 09:10 AM
OTOH: KK

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.191% 54.62% 02.57% 117843360 5545566.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 42.809% 40.24% 02.57% 86815812 5545566.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

EZ call all day.
KK vs AA Quote
11-26-2014 , 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer
Yeah, in the way that quads > boat = ELE. Nits shoving over nits happens every day. The point is, 'never fold KK pre' is bad advice, since there are rare situations when it's correct to do it and as we know, you see a lot of unusual situations if you play a lot of poker.
You have a point, so how about very seldom fold KK pre unless you are in a situation that is fairly sophisticated and you have a good read?? Problem is that many players are not that soph' and don't read that well so not folding KK pre is likely their best move until experience and skill level improves
KK vs AA Quote
11-26-2014 , 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit
You have a point, so how about very seldom fold KK pre unless you are in a situation that is fairly sophisticated and you have a good read?? Problem is that many players are not that soph' and don't read that well so not folding KK pre is likely their best move until experience and skill level improves
Pretty much this. Never fold KK is obviously wrong, I have actually seen people only shove AA and one guy even showing AA preflop to a guy who was tanking with KK who of course ended up folding. Having said that, the situations where you should be folding kings are very rare and if you're not too experienced you might come to wrong conclusions about whether to call of fold and thereby risking to make bigger mistakes in folding than you would have just calling it off. In other words, unless you are so so so sure you are capable of narrowing his range to one hand and that it is in fact the case, you can end up folding kings but otherwise just stick with "never fold kings".
KK vs AA Quote
11-26-2014 , 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit
You have a point, so how about very seldom fold KK pre unless you are in a situation that is fairly sophisticated and you have a good read?? Problem is that many players are not that soph' and don't read that well so not folding KK pre is likely their best move until experience and skill level improves
Yes, I think the rule "Don't fold KK pre 100bb deep until you know enough to know why you are folding" is a reasonable approach.

The 100bb caveat is vital, given anyone can double up a couple of times, is it still just a cooler when OMC/super-nit 6 bet shoves and you are all in for 400bb? I don't think so. But 100bb deep at least you are rarely making a horrible error if you always auto-stack off pre.

EDIT

I agree folding KK too cavalierly is a big mistake and it is very surprising what people will shove and call shoves with, just when you had them pegged as QQ+/AK at the absolute widest and then they show up with TT or AJss or something.
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11-27-2014 , 04:48 AM
i think it's good played!
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11-27-2014 , 12:23 PM
Are the unknown villains going out to TT, AJs or are they showing up making a huge shove with K4o? It seems like they aren't showing up with standard hands but a pip or two worse. The conversation about a ToM shoveling in a 400bb stack vs our KK is fun and all, but the standard unknown at micros 100bb isn't likely playing some balanced range. Here 190bb vs unknown is tougher but I'm still not assuming nit or GTO genius.
KK vs AA Quote

      
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