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How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5) How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5)

08-09-2017 , 03:38 PM
I've been playing some cash lately to work on my post-flop play and have run into a bunch of spots where I don't know what I'm doing.

The first spot I recognized was playing 3bet pots OOP as the 3bettor. I typically like to 3bet some medium-strong hands from the SB to compensate for playing OOP. I always follow up with a 1/3-1/2 pot cbet if called. I don't know if any of this is right, but it's what I'm doing right now.

Here are a few hands:

    Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    Hero (SB): $5 (100 bb)
    BB: $5.80 (116 bb)
    UTG: $5.91 (118.2 bb)
    MP: $5 (100 bb) 41/36 3B:20 FCB: 0/2 (22 hands)
    CO: $19.60 (392 bb)
    BTN: $6.78 (135.6 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with Q K
    UTG folds, MP raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.15, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.45, BB folds, MP calls $0.30, CO calls $0.30

    Flop: ($1.40) 4 5 3 (3 players)
    Hero bets $0.67, MP calls $0.67, CO folds

    Turn: ($2.74) 7 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP bets $1.08, Hero folds

    Spoiler:
    Results: $2.74 pot ($0.11 rake)
    Final Board: 4 5 3 7
    Hero mucked Q K and lost (-$1.12 net)
    MP mucked and won $2.63 ($1.51 net)


    Upon review I don't think this is a good spot to cbet. I should be getting floated by Ax and any pair. I think check/calling flop and giving up on most turns is probably in order here.

      Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (SB): $5 (100 bb)
      BB: $5.13 (102.6 bb)
      UTG: $5.53 (110.6 bb)
      MP: $5.24 (104.8 bb) 19/16 3B: 7.2 FCB: 17 F3B: 13 (232 hands)
      CO: $6.29 (125.8 bb) 15/0 (15 hands)
      BTN: $5.36 (107.2 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 5 5
      UTG folds, MP raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.15, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.45, BB folds, MP calls $0.30, CO calls $0.30

      Flop: ($1.40) K 7 7 (3 players)
      Hero bets $0.48, MP calls $0.48, CO calls $0.48

      Turn: ($2.84) 8 (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks

      River: ($2.84) 4 (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks

      Spoiler:
      Results: $2.84 pot ($0.12 rake)
      Final Board: K 7 7 8 4
      Hero showed 5 5 and lost (-$0.93 net)
      MP showed T T and lost (-$0.93 net)
      CO showed K J and won $2.72 ($1.79 net)


      This is probably a very marginal 3bet. MP's stats are fine and I don't remember him getting out of line. I think we can get a lot of his marginal opens (QT/QJ, maybe KQ, etc) to fold and get heads up with the passive player, but even then 55 doesn't play well vs CO's continuing range.

        Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
        Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

        SB: $6.84 (136.8 bb) 79/27 (48 hands)
        Hero (BB): $5 (100 bb)
        UTG: $5 (100 bb)
        MP: $5.24 (104.8 bb)
        CO: $5 (100 bb) 24/23 8.6 F3B: 72 (407 hands)
        BTN: $5.77 (115.4 bb)

        Preflop: Hero is BB with A K
        2 folds, CO raises to $0.12, BTN folds, SB calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, CO calls $0.28, SB calls $0.28

        Flop: ($1.20) 9 8 5 (3 players)
        SB checks, Hero bets $0.41, CO raises to $1.39, 2 folds

        Spoiler:
        Results: $2.02 pot ($0.08 rake)
        Final Board: 9 8 5
        SB mucked and lost (-$0.40 net)
        Hero mucked A K and lost (-$0.81 net)
        CO mucked and won $1.94 ($1.13 net)


        Pretty clear 3bet here facing an open from a reg and a flat from a rec in the SB.

        Unsure if a check is better than a cbet going 3 ways on this flop. I decided to put in a bet with a backdoor flush draw and 2 overs, but folded to the raise from the reg. Can we ever float to see a turn card here?

          Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
          Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

          Hero (SB): $7.94 (158.8 bb)
          BB: $8.45 (169 bb)
          UTG: $4.55 (91 bb) 70/35/ 10 (20 hands)
          MP: $5.09 (101.8 bb)
          CO: $10.06 (201.2 bb)
          BTN: $5.50 (110 bb)

          Preflop: Hero is SB with Q A
          UTG raises to $0.15, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, BB folds, UTG calls $0.35

          Flop: ($1.05) 2 4 7 (2 players)
          Hero bets $0.51, UTG calls $0.51

          Turn: ($2.07) 4 (2 players)
          Hero bets $1.15, UTG folds

          Spoiler:
          Results: $2.07 pot ($0.09 rake)
          Final Board: 2 4 7 4
          Hero mucked Q A and won $1.98 ($0.97 net)
          UTG mucked and lost (-$1.01 net)


          3bet for value here. cbet is also for value as I think Ax and even Kx with Kh is likely to continue. In hindsight I don't like the turn bet because this AQ probably doesn't due too well vs villain's continuing range.
          How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5) Quote
          08-09-2017 , 03:43 PM
          i may be a nit but i don't 3b either of the first two, you have something playable and are kind of turning your hand into a bluff, play poker

          third one i don't get the really, really small cbet that prices in every draw in the world

          last one seems fine given that he appears spewy off of a small sample but i'd still want some sort of indication that he does fold to pressure rather than calling you off with 33 or 54 or something like that
          How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5) Quote
          08-09-2017 , 03:57 PM
          1) I'd call preflop. Does he

          2) I'd call preflop.

          3) I'd check the flop.

          4) I'd 3 bet preflop readless as you did, but with a read that the guy is good I'd call preflop. Then either way I'd check the flop. As a general rule, I don't cbet flops for value with naked Ace highs in no limit holdem. I think this rule will serve beginners well until they're good enough to know on their own where and when to value bet naked Ace high; these will be the special exceptions to the general rule.
          How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5) Quote
          08-09-2017 , 06:21 PM
          The biggest discrepancy in thought process in these hands seems to be the pre-flop 3bet from the SB. The main reason I'm 3betting these hands from the SB is because I think flatting them OOP sounds like a bad time vs a decent player.

          I've read before that it's bad to flat out of the SB. Should I just be folding these hands 1 and 2?
          How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5) Quote
          08-09-2017 , 06:49 PM
          I think it's bad for beginners to flat out of the small blind, so maybe fold those. However, there comes a time when you'll be able to fold decent pairs postflop when you think calling is unprofitable and when that happens, I think you should call preflop.

          Quote:
          I think flatting them OOP sounds like a bad time vs a decent player.
          It's not easy and I don't have data to back up my theory. Just because it's difficult doesn't make it unprofitable.

          "nobody ever said the final boss was easy." - unknown

          -----

          So what happens when you coldcall in the small blind? Sometimes the big blind calls too, which makes it a somewhat protected pot. This makes it very difficult, read: unprofitable, to bluff for the in position player. This means equity realization for your 55, AQ, etc because if he's not bluffing then what's he doing? He's checking a lot. Then when he bets and you have a naked Ace high or a small pocket pair with multiple overcards on board? You fold easily. Not all beginners can make these folds easily thus they should just fold preflop.

          Other times, you gotta play heads up vs a decent player. This isn't a very advantageous position and I don't claim to win a lot of money in these spots. However, I do believe that calling as I suggested is somewhat profitable. That's why I do it. Not because I'm bored nor for any bs metagame reasons. It's about winning money. I think I can win back more than my preflop investment. So when I'm heads up out of position vs a decent player, there are a few things that are gonna happen on the flop:

          a) he's going to check back a lot on dynamic boards that hit my range hard. This is equity realization in pure form. My 55 will often be the best hand when this happens and my AQ will often hit a strong pair on the turn or river in addition to my raw showdown value. If and when he bets, I'll make a decision based on the size of the bet and how much equity I think I can realize on later streets.

          b) he's going to bet a lot on static boards that hit his range hard. This is power poker in pure form. You know how some bad overaggressive players just love to spew no matter the board texture? Yeah, good players don't do that. They'll put tons of pressure on you on static boards for the prime reason that they have tons of strong hands to back up those bluffs. They're not gonna try to "trick" you. If they slowplay a big hand, it's not to be tricky or for the sake of a silly word like "balance" but rather it's because they recognize that it's the line with the highest ev. When they bet the flop, they know what they're trying to accomplish and they know how to accomplish it. However, all of that said, you get two cards to play, right? This means that you own a share of the pot, however small in some cases. If you're making good decisions, then literally every decision you make at the table will have an expectation greater than or equal to $$zero. It's the bad, unprofitable calls and the missed value with big hands that separates the beginners from the decent players. So put in some study with an equity calculator and see just how badly 55 does on the AT8 flop. Then consider how often those types of flops come up. Then when you're at the table, you may even recognize spots where it's correct to fold 55 or AQo in the small blind because you think calling and 3 betting are both unprofitable. That's when you know you're ready to call sometimes in the small blind. Not because I told you to, and not because you read it in a book, but because you believe it's profitable.
          How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5) Quote
          08-10-2017 , 03:25 AM
          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Soebr
          The main reason I'm 3betting these hands from the SB is because I think flatting them OOP sounds like a bad time vs a decent player.
          You're playing at 5NL - it's generally correct to assume they're not a decent player until proven otherwise. And if they are, why do you want to escalate the pots against good players out of position? Play big pots with big hands or against bad players, not with stuff that, against a good player and it goes in, will see you get stacked.
          How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5) Quote
          08-10-2017 , 12:13 PM
          You can flat in the SB sometimes, especially vs UTG and MP (e.g. in SB vs an MP open, you can flat 99-66 and a couple of suited hands with overcards to the pocket pairs so you've got some board coverage), but three of the spots posted are squeezes, where an even tighter continuance range is recommended.

          Looking at my default squeezing charts, the KQo in SB is a fold, the 55 is also a fold (you can overcall if the open was smaller than 3x).
          The AKs in BB is a standard squeeze and then a check on that dynamic/low/wet flop (you've got more obvious value-bets, and more obvious bluffing combos to bet with).
          The AQ in SB vs UTG 3x can actually be a call (you can flat it along with TT-88, and use some suited aces and KQs as bluffs), but 3-bet/folding isn't a terrible option. I think the flop can go either way. It depends what the rest of your range looks like. If you chose a small size, you can probably bet most of your range, as it will be pretty clear whether you're betting for value (big overpairs) or as a bluff (ace high). You should usually triple barrel with most/all of your bluffs in spots like that, since it will take at least two bets to get villain off small overpairs and draws. Just ask yourself "How would I play AA in this spot?". You should usually play your bluffs the same way as the top of your range.

          Ideally, you can find some time away from the table to build what you think would be solid strategies for all the common pre-flop situations. If you design some 3-betting and calling ranges for all the positions, and then test them out, you can tweak them after you've got some experience/results. I'd generally shy away from squeezing with small pairs or offsuit hands though. You generally want to squeeze with hands that either have blockers to villain's 4-bets and equity/playability (including suitedness) against his calls. (e.g. AJs and A5s are good squeezing hands. 55 and KQo are not).

          Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 08-10-2017 at 12:21 PM.
          How to Play Bet Pots OOP? (NL5) Quote

                
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