About this post:

First time post of a long time lurker. I do not mind criticism or even flaming as long as it contains anything constructive.

About me:

I've been playing poker now for about 5 years, always micro stakes (up to 10nl ,up to 10$sngs) and a little bit live here and there. Winning or losing at those stakes doesn't affect me financially, i have a full time job and play for fun, ofc I'm having more fun winning. I have a technical university degree and consider myself a decently intelligent person.

Poker "career":

Played mostly sngs for most of the time as a marginal loser. Switched to micro cash games about 2 months ago. I've read a few pokerbooks and pretty much anything related on 2p2, including archives. I don't have a reasonable samplesize in cash games yet since other stuff prevents me from playing much. I only play at stars, since I'm non-US and read they have a very reasonable rake for micro cash games.

Reason for the Post:
Despite trying to play reasonable poker (currently 18/15/2.5) thinking about why villain plays the way he does on every street, i have no success even at NL5(barely breaking even, i know i make plenty of mistakes though). However there seems to be a consensus on 2p2 that it's a walk in the park and anyone not completely retarded should win at those stakes.

Question:
So, how many of the advice, statements and COTWs on the forums for msnl does still apply these days as opposed to say 2007/2008 when it was definitely softer. Has it gotten that tough even at msnl that you have to put in real effort to be a winning players? or am I just not made for poker?

**Cliffnotes**
- playing msnl on stars
- trying to win, studying both books and p2p, failing to win
- how tough are msnl games really these days? do the "older" concepts(relevant to msnl) still apply?

msnl is mid stakes,
uNL is micro stakes

I suggest u post your stats in the stats thread, if there's any obvious leaks someone will find it.

I only play 0.01/0.02 so I can't comment although at my stakes it's been pretty easy.

Sorry, I meant uNL throughout the post.

I think most of the old wisdom on 2+2 still applies, but it applies in different spots, at different stakes, and to a different extent than in the past.

For example, some of the older posts say things like "You don't really need to bluff below 25nl, nobody will ever fold." When the post was made, this was 90% true, but since the micro-stakes are now infested with regs, you have to realize that the advice given in the old days for 50nl or 100nl now applies to the micro-stakes games. It is still correct that you shouldn't bluff calling stations, and it is still correct that you must sometimes bluff against regs or else become easily readable; what has changed is the texture of the game and villain tendencies at various limits.

Another piece of advice which does not necessarily apply in today's micro games is "Don't 3bet as a bluff, they are going to call with any two cards." It is true that you shouldn't 3bet as a bluff if your opponent is going to call with a range which is weak, but which nevertheless is a favorite. What has changed again is that there are many villains, even in the micro-stakes, who fold to a high percentage of 3bets.

Also, "MSNL" is usually used to refer to "Medium Stakes NL". I think you should use "uNL" to refer to micro-stakes NL for clarity.

How many hands have u played?
2 months could mean anything. U could be running bad.
R u playing fullring?

If you're playing full ring, 18/15 is a bit on the aggro side. No question that you can make it work, but it takes a higher skill level and you'll experience more variance. For micros I really like a sort of more passivenit style, like 15/11 or so, flatting a lot of hands IP because micro players have such big postflop leaks.


As for how hard it is.... As long as nanonoko can crush high stakes playing like 20 tables at once, I wouldn't worry about how profitable the lower stakes are, just worry about improving your game.

It's fairly easy but that all depends on your game. Basically you want to play fundamental poker, tag abc for most of the noobs. For the regs and decent players you want to loosen up a bit to steal thier blinds and take small pots. But don't even worry about small pots cause when you do get a hand you can take those fishies to value town.

20? I thought it was 24?

I think most people that trot out the "micros are easy" line have not played in them recently. It's not that they're filled with solid players, but they're now filled with nits and micro grinders. Bad players are everywhere, but the 70/10 type fish are few and far between.

That said, if you're having trouble beating stuff like 10NL (over a decent sample size) you probably have some big leaks that you need to fix.

micros are easy i play them regularly had to move down bcz i withdrew 1/2 my roll then hit a big downswing. Moved back down to 4nl 2 months ago will be playing 50nl next month.

Thank you for your comments.

I do not doubt that uNL is beatable, and i have leaks that i know of and am working on and pretty sure some i don't know about.

I'm also sure it's easy for someone moving down if he's winning at higher stakes.

It just seems to me that it's not as easy as people here on the forum make it look.

I agree with this - and I would like to add a little.

I hear the micros are easy too, but this is probably coming from people with A LOT of experience playing. You can read all the theory you want, and have a pretty good understanding of the theory intellectually - yet putting the theory in to practice is another story. You read about certain plays one and about situations, however, its not until you have a lot of experience till you can really pick out the situations and know when to use certain plays and tatics.

Also, I think a lot is made of preflop stats. While these are important and a good place to start, your preflop game could be fine while postflop is full of leaks. These leaks won't be reflected in your VPIP/PFR.

I played the micros intensely for about a year, and then had to put the grind on hold (moving in with the GF, new job, etc ...). I always thought I had a decent grasp of the theory, and know picking up poker again and really studying situations - now I feel that when I first started I had no idea about how to apply the concepts I read and studied. Its really no wonder I lost a chunk of change. Its just really about experience.

Right, but you will make fewer mistakes postflop if you play tighter preflop, because the times you're involved in a hand you're much more likely to have the best hand.

The problem for you is you probably havent figured out what your goal is every time you sit at at a table. When you first open up the stars software you should be thinking one thing and one thing only, "where that fish". It's called table selection, and you should be able to do it all the way up until 3/6. This means looking for tables with at least 1 horrible player that you know you can beat. Once you take your seat, your only goal should be playing against that one fish at every opportunity. Since you have seen how bad he is it shouldnt be too hard to figure out what to do, basically waiting for a good hand.

People really underestimate table selection. Either their pride or ego's get to them, or they simply assume theres value in playing at tables which "should be easy" because "it's only NL2" or something. But forget all this. Even at 1/2 cent you need to start practicing table selection, so that you know what to look for and how to get into the habit.