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Help a humble knight 2 Help a humble knight 2

07-27-2017 , 11:00 PM
Greeting traveler!

Here I crossed AA on this hand.
Results is finally hidden, would you mind giving us your ideas about it?

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Converted at http://handhistoryconverter.com/

Button ($1.66)
SB ($2.16)
BB ($3.43)
UTG ($2.40)
UTG+1 ($3.52)
MP1 ($4.09)
MP2 ($1)
Hero (MP3) ($1.53)
CO ($1.49)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, A
UTG raises to $0.06, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.06, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.10, 2 folds, SB calls $0.09, BB calls $0.08, UTG calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.50) 10, 3, 4 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.24, SB calls $0.24, 3 folds

Turn: ($0.98) Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.70, SB calls $0.70

River: ($2.38) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $2.38 | Rake: $0.08
Help a humble knight 2 Quote
07-28-2017 , 01:26 AM
Your 3b preflop is wayyyyy to small. With a standard 3x open UTG and a caller your 3b should be much much larger

Going to the flop 5 ways is a disaster with AA, if you run the numbers on 4 random hands you're only like an apx 25-30% to win the hand.

I think the check river is fine. Problem is the flop having so many people seeing it.
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07-28-2017 , 01:58 AM
Seriously 3bet larger, you price everything in to just crush your aces, plus I guess if you are 3betting aces that small, you don't 3bet much do you?

Once we get to the river and the sb has checked twice to us, just shove the river. He'll turn up with random pairs, and some two pairs/sets but in general the check/call line = you should be miles ahead of his calling range.

So shove river for value, times you get called and win will outweigh the dodgy losses.

When you get dealt any hand, first thing you should be thinking is: Is this +EV to play, or is this +EV for me to play. Using AA as in your example, that answer would be YES in a big way,

So then you ask yourself the second question, how can I max my EV, well with Aces thats going to be 99.99% by reraising.

Which leads to the question how to play the aces. Well we know raising is good, but why is it good, well its good cause its gets more money in the pot while were ahead, but whats also a good thing. It pushes people out that might have hands that can outdraw you. 22-TT , weird Suited Connectors, etc..

What else can happen, the more people fold the better our position.

So we get more value, better equity and better position. WIN WIN WIN, its a sheendog.

Last edited by FindNameHere; 07-28-2017 at 01:58 AM. Reason: oh. its 9 handed, still shove and pump shove
Help a humble knight 2 Quote
07-28-2017 , 03:22 PM
Top off your stack.

3 bet bigger - make it about $0.25 to go.
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07-28-2017 , 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FindNameHere
Which leads to the question how to play the aces. Well we know raising is good, but why is it good, well its good cause its gets more money in the pot while were ahead, but whats also a good thing. It pushes people out that might have hands that can outdraw you. 22-TT , weird Suited Connectors, etc..
Why would you ever want those hands to fold? There is literally no hand you want people to fold as long as your sizing is correct. 25c should be fine and they can call with any hand they like.

Postflop is irrelevant because the hand should never play out this way. Based on how SB played this my guess is he has something like JJ.
Help a humble knight 2 Quote
07-28-2017 , 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AznblackhawkCo
if you run the numbers on 4 random hands you're only like an apx 25-30% to win the hand.
Might be helpful to your own learning progress if you would check the numbers and think about the result before making a statement like that.

To approach the problem from the other direction: if AA had 30% equity against a random hand on that specific flop, that would mean each of the four other hands would have 70%/4 = 17.5% equity. Does that sound reasonable to you?

We know that AA vs. 4 random hands preflop is ~55%. Given that flop, I am pretty sure that number stays roughly the same on the flop, somewhere between 52-58%.
Help a humble knight 2 Quote
07-28-2017 , 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
Might be helpful to your own learning progress if you would check the numbers and think about the result before making a statement like that.
Indeed I was at work and was giving a rough estimate.

I guess when I said "you're only like an apx 25-30%" it indicated I wasn't entirely sure and clearly didn't run numbers, I didn't feel that I needed too since I was trying to convey that AA isn't invincible and that making the 3b larger is correct. But after running numbers vs 4 reasonable hands (including pp, suited connectors, Ax, etc, I found that AA is about 40%-45%. If I add a 5th villain, and give him an additional suited connector Hero is now only about 32%.

In terms of my learning curve, when I min 3bet with AA and get 4 callers, I now know I have slightly more equity then I thought but I mean come on, do you honestly think memorizing the estimated % of a 5 way flop with AA is crucial to someone's "learning progress".

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
To approach the problem from the other direction: if AA had 30% equity against a random hand on that specific flop, that would mean each of the four other hands would have 70%/4 = 17.5% equity. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Well given that any pocket pair or suited connector is around 20% and there's 4 hands so I don't think my guess was that unreasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
We know that AA vs. 4 random hands preflop is ~55%. Given that flop, I am pretty sure that number stays roughly the same on the flop, somewhere between 52-58%.
The odds vs. 4 random hands is 55%, if you give the villain random hands(from KK - 23o), not hands that people voluntarily choose to play. Obviously the flop is favorable for AA but wishing for this dry of a board vs 4 villains seems like a mistake, I doubt I win with AA 55% of the time when this many players see the flop, but who knows I think I might have > 10 hands in my history that saw that many players post flop with me having AA and even if I did I don't think giving me an extra x% number equity will matter when deciding to cbet or call a check jam on turn/river since playing multiway with this many players is pretty damn hard to put specific players on ranges

tl;dr raise more preflop and that will change the whole dynamic of hand.

Last edited by AznblackhawkCo; 07-28-2017 at 08:02 PM.
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07-29-2017 , 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvis
Why would you ever want those hands to fold? There is literally no hand you want people to fold as long as your sizing is correct. 25c should be fine and they can call with any hand they like.

Postflop is irrelevant because the hand should never play out this way. Based on how SB played this my guess is he has something like JJ.
Maybe I wasnt clear,..

by raising 6c to 10c, he allows a cascade effect to happen. All pairs, weird sc can come along, by 3betting bigger we get called by worse, but not a table of worse hands pre.

Don't want them to fold, but sure as hell dont want to see 3 people come along with ****ty hands and crack are pre nuts.
Help a humble knight 2 Quote
07-29-2017 , 12:06 PM
I'd love to have 4 people come along with worse hands as long as they are paying a high enough price. In fact I'd love to have every single player on the table come along with whatever hands they like.

The problem in this case isn't that 4 people called, it's that they didn't get charged enough.
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07-29-2017 , 02:46 PM
I can't even look at the post-flop history, because the min 3-bet pre made my eyes bleed.

Put in a proper 3-bet of at least three times the size of the open (but closer to 4x, because there was also a caller), so that the ranges are better defined and you get some value.
Help a humble knight 2 Quote
07-29-2017 , 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
I can't even look at the post-flop history, because the min 3-bet pre made my eyes bleed.

Put in a proper 3-bet of at least three times the size of the open (but closer to 4x, because there was also a caller), so that the ranges are better defined and you get some value.
Hahahaha LMAO.
Thanks everyone for the comments, i will make sure to do a proper betting.
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