BB: 100 BB
Hero (UTG): 103.2 BB
CO: 101 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
BTN: 56.6 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 4)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 7 7

Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (7.4 BB, 2 players) K 6 5
Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Turn: (19.4 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, CO checks

River: (19.4 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, CO checks

Hero shows 7 7 (Two Pair, Queens and Sevens)

Hero wins 18.6 BB



Please critique and comment.

I thought c'bet was pretty standard with 2nd pair and back door straight draw.

I checked turn and was happy Villain checked back because I might have folded to a bet.

On river I didn't think CO had the Q but I wasn't feeling great about the K so I was thinking I'd just check/call.

Your flop cbet is a bit on the large side. Make all your cbets smaller.

Check turn is good, if he bets it's a bit of a gross spot. Calling and folding would both be reasonable depending on the player.

Your river thinking doesn't make sense. You say you check because you're afraid of the K. For starters a K probably bets the turn, but more importantly you're paying a bet off anyway. If you've decided you're paying off a bet then it doesn't matter if it's you who bets or him. What you should be thinking about is which is the better option for getting money out of him when your hand is good. You can check and hope he bluffs a busted hand, or you can bet and hope he puts you on a bluff and calls with a 5 or 6. Against a player who takes this line I'd go for the latter, after he declines to bet the turn when checked to I'm not going to rely on him to bluff the river. I also think the turn check makes it more likely that he has a weak made hand rather than a draw.

While I recommend folding 77 UTG at a 9 or 10 handed game it is a pretty good hand to raise first in against 4 people. I would raise some of the time and call some of the time in this spot.


On the flop things look pretty good. There is only one over card to worry about. If you just look at things from a probability standpoint it is pretty unlikely he has a king, something like (12/13 * 12/13) squared. Actually that percentile isn't that accurate because villain isn't playing two random cards and there is a selection bias towards kings. Your hand is pretty vulnerable to many over cards.

Maybe you should bet again on the turn. The queen is kind of irrelevant. But you could run into a king and will have sort of an interesting river decision if you do bet.

Over all it seemed like you made reasonable decisions throughout the hand.

if you're cbetting this (one of the worst hands for cbet in the deck), what hands are you willing to NOT cbet?

Why do I want to not cbet? This is a good flop for a preflop raiser, ergo I should be betting it most of the time.

That said, if you want to not cbet some made hands, QQ/JJ/TT/K9s/KT/KJ are all better candidates. 77 is going to get dicey on a lot of runouts. The cbet has kind of a two-way purpose, where I'm fine with taking it down because the hand is fragile, but at the same time I'm ahead a decent amount when they call.

Bet much smaller on the flop. Villain will be pretty inflexible on this board (he mostly folds all low equity hands whether you bet pot or a third of pot), and there's not much good that can happen if you bloat the pot with such a weak holding. If you bet big OOP, then your range should be very small and very polarized (nuts and draws to the nuts, not hands with 2 outs).
The turn is a pretty clear check-fold. You didn't pick up any outs, so you're drawing almost dead against 88+, and you block the straight draws. River is a check-fold too. If villain doesn't bluff the turn, he's not going to bluff the river. His turn check-back usually means he has showdown value.

I'm a bit surprised you apparently won this one. I can only assume villain had something weird like A6s/A5s/44 or even ace high.

I check because I don't want to get raised on the small chance that he does have the Q.

Why do you say the Q is irrelevant on the turn? I think he could easily have some Q combos in his range. AxQh, QJh, etc.

Otherwise, thank you for your comments.

Well, I c'bet quite a lot. It might be a leak of mine. However, I prefer c'betting as it gives me the best chance of taking the pot down right away. Especially here, I have 2nd pair and get some extra equity with the backdoor draw.

Agreed, thanks.

Yeah, I was getting ready to fold to his turn or river bet. He could have also had some heart combos like AJh, ATh, etc. This was 5NL so I don't know how often missed flush draws are trying to bluff at this river.

Thanks, I guess I will re-think my sizing. I was trying to represent the K and force out any flush/straight draws.

Yes he could have Qx of hearts but otherwise the queen is very unlikely to have helped him. Qx of hearts is a pretty low probability for villain to be holding.

Your C-bet is a bit large. You can think about C-betting a bit on the smaller side, but that's personal preference and knowledge of opponents (if they're calling your large bets then it's value lost if you bet small)

However, when you C-bet as with any bet, you need to ask yourself some things:
What would I do on later streets if I get called?
What would I do if I got raised?
Is it possible to get called by worse? Is it possible to make a better hand fold??

Here, if we ask these questions we will find that:

1. if you got flatted, you have no plan for afterwards apart from check check? Not a very solid plan. You don't know what villain has and you subsequently gave him a free river, which may sometimes hurt you when he is drawing, or when a scare card comes and he decides to bluff with worse. This is never a good plan and often won't work. What would you do if he bet the river? or the turn?

2. If you got raised after C-betting, you'd be totally screwed. Either you have to shove right there if you think he has nothing, or he's ahead, you call and if you don't improve you are screwed. In any case you are in for a few big decisions on the turn and river and never sure where you're at.

3. Can your C-bet get called by worse? I'm not sure. Your C-bet is large enough that most people won't chase a straight draw. Maybe Flush draws would call if they had overs or backdoor stuff but they're only a little behind you if they can see the cards through to the river. Would a pair of 6 or worse call? Doubt it.

4. Can you fold out better hands? Any pair larger than yours (which V presumably flat called pre to disguise their strength) will never fold here, nor would AK which flopped TPTK. Two pairs/Flush Draws with a pair/Sets are never folding.


Your turn and river actions are also strange. When you get flatted on the flop, what hands do you think are doing this? If it's only draws you should never give them a free card. If it's hands that you're behind of, then a check could work, but again, are you prepared to check-call? Or are you just gonna raise, pre, C-bet flop, and then check-fold turn?

Then, your opponent Checks behind, so why check again on the river? If he had Kings or pairs better than yours (assuming he's not putting you ONLY on a Queen) then he is surely betting the turn for value/protection. So once he checks back, you can be quite certain that he has a marginal hand ie a draw, two high cards, or low pairs, so once river bricked out, you should think about betting. You would get a fold from draws but maybe a pair of 6s would call you. You checked behind, and again, what would you have done if Villain made a bet? You'd be in a tough spot.


SO don't C-bet without a plan for afterwards. You can check the flop, yeah give V a free card, but once he checks back, you can comfortably assume that he doesn't have a K and then start extracting value. You also keep the pot small which is always recommended for hands like middle pairs (if you're always C-betting 77 then you should also C-bet all medium pairs when they flop a set, and that's not a great strategy)

I would check-call flop here (probably be checked back) then make a half pot bet on the turn (probably get a fold) and then another half pot on the river.

Finally, I feel like based on your actions you didn't really put your opponent on hands. What hands did you put him on here? If there are draws in those hands, (and in fact, if most of his range is draws) then you should never give a free card. If there are hands which are ahead, you have to see if you can get him off it or if not, give up.

It seems to me here, that you raised pre, got called, saw one over card to your pocket pair, bet, and once you got called, basically gave up, convincing yourself he has kings, but that's not a great way to play. Put your opponent on a range, think of what combos in that range he is more likely to have based on the action, and then make a play that is the most suitable for the majority of his range. Here he could also conceivably have a low set or could hit the Queen, but if he does, and checks back, whatever, pay him, but always put your opponent on a range.

I would think that he had a big draw with a weak Ace here. If he had AK or a pocket pair he would probably 3-bet pre. So, could you get more? Maybe he would call a small turn bet and then fold the river if you had bet all the way, but maybe (and this is pure speculation) if you checked back on flop, then bet turn and river he would call both sometimes. It's still the same two bets as if you checked flop and bet turn and river, but it would keep the pot small and give you an exit if the draw(s) came in.

Hope this helped.

That thinking doesnt make sense either. If he raises you fold. Once again you lose one bet, just like check calling. At this level you arent getting bluffraised here ever. Him checking back the turn with a hand that needs to bluff is too risky because a lot of players will play like you and c/c river.

As soon as you determine that you're always paying off one bet here, the hands that beat you become irrelevant. Need to be thinking about how best to get him to put money in when your hand is good.

Thank you for taking the time to type all that out. Definitely helped to see your thought process and all the different situations I should be considering when I c'bet.

C-betting is fine. If we get raised we should never be doing anything other than folding without a second thought (shoving over a raise with 77 is lighting money on fire), best case scenario is we are a slight favourite. If we c-bet and get called we are also done with the hand. x/c, x/c the turn and river is also throwing money away. I c-bet flop to get rid of overs which have non-trivial equity and then I'm hoping to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. Either that or I'm done with the hand as 77 with no heart plays terribly on this board if called and I'm not 100% sure what my bet, check range would consist of here, with the draws out there possibly KQ, KJ and QQ?

I think you played this ok, cbet is nearly mandatory but as mentioned smaller. Because stacks are so deep if he bets the turn its a fold, this is a board with both non robust and robust equity (King or draws) so your hand is in plenty of trouble by the river.

If he checks the turn but bets the river there he has polarised his hand but I think he's bluffing enough to warrant a call.

I'd check the flop. If he bets the flop then I make a decision based on the sizing. I think you have a lot of equity but not enough to get value on the later streets unimproved. Notice that when you bet the flop and he calls his range is strengthened considerably to the point that you should check fold the turn. This makes your flop bet a retroactive bluff with the best hand. I don't like the logic of "giving myself the best chance of winning the pot. " I mention this because poker isn't about winning pots. While I do think that betting is slightly profitable relative to open folding, I think checking is the more profitable line. Notice that you won the hand unimproved when he checks the turn and river. It's not so far fetched to think that he could check all three streets with a worse hand than 77. There's money in the pot and any time you win a showdown that's ev that can't be denied as part of your winrate.

Yes you do lose plenty of equity when he calls but generally speaking I think you would get enough folds on the flop when you bet to make it profitable however I think there are enough hands you keep in that you are beating with a cbet OOP. Also when you check the turn you look very weak after your flop check.

Maybe this line of checking down would be better if you are IP because if villain check calls OOP you have really narrowed his range. (Not saying a cbet here is wrong, just the thinking)

"Yes you do lose plenty of equity when he calls but generally speaking I think you would get enough folds on the flop when you bet to make it profitable however I think there are enough hands you keep in that you are beating with a cbet OOP. Also when you check the turn you look very weak after your flop check."

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Just because betting is profitable that doesn't make it the right play. The hands that are gonna fold to the flop cbet have 15-25% equity.lots of people wanna bet to deny that equity from being realized but what they're missing is that every time the opponent checks back we get one step closer to showdown and our equity improves. That's ev that you realize for free when they check back.

The fact that we look weak if we check is fine with me because I want the opponent to put money in the pot with low equity hands. The logic of "check calling is a tough way to play the hand so I bet the flop" is backwards imo. against rational agents it takes a stronger hand to bet than check call. If you build your betting range with lots of hands that can't stand a raise then you're gonna get run over more and more the higher you play.

Huh? That is absolute nonsense. How can you possibly make money by giving your opponent a free card when you are ahead in a hand? If you have x% equity on a flop, you will still have x% equity on average after the turn is dealt and the river is dealt. That's what it means to have x% equity on a flop.

Note I'm not saying that we should always bet when our hand figures to be >50%, but when we don't bet it is for reasons other than magically appearing equity.

My bad that sentence should've read "when they miss".

There's money in the pot and when you get to showdown you earn a fraction of the pot.

Yeah some good ideas Bob and I'm still trying work out a checking range and reduce my cbetting range a little.

Is it too much to ask to give your flop checking range in this situation and why? Especially when you mentioned that its not ideal building a betting range that cannot stand a raise.

At this level the equity you lose would just be made up by winning the pot there and then with the cbet?

Thanks

It would be quicker and easier to provide a pseudo-GTO betting range, because UTG vs CO on K65tt should probably have a c-bet freq of <50%.

If you decided to go with 1/2 pot, then the value c-bets would be AA w/ no blocker, all AK+, and KQ/KJ with at least one heart. Semi-bluffs would be flush draws and backdoor flush draws (e.g. QJhh, JTcc). "Protection" bets could include A6s/A5s and maybe 99-77 too. If you pick a smaller size than 1/2 pot, you can bet at a higher frequency. If you go with a PSB, the optimal c-bet frequency might be as low as 10%, and will be super-polar (just monsters and draws to the nuts).

Many of the hands that check would be check-folding (e.g. AJo, A8s in wrong suit), but to help protect the QQ-TT that want to peel at least once, you'd usually check top set and AA with the flush blocker, and maybe use KTs/KJs as multi-street bluffcatchers (they are also perfectly valid as c-bets).

As always with GTO play, there's tons of mixing. If your range is balanced correctly, top set will have the same EV whether you bet or check, and the same could be said about almost every hand that gets to the turn. i.e. It's not a massive error if you bet 77 and it's not a massive error if you check it. It has a low EV either way.

Very nice arty.

"As always with GTO play, there's tons of mixing. If your range is balanced correctly, top set will have the same EV whether you bet or check, and the same could be said about almost every hand that gets to the turn. i.e. It's not a massive error if you bet 77 and it's not a massive error if you check it. It has a low EV either way."

Small nitpick: this is only true if your opponent is also playing gto. Otherwise either betting or checking monsters will be higher value. For example vs a station betting 100% is best. Or vs a maniac checking 100% is best.

Raiseing pre with 77 is usually not a good idea in early position most flops will put you in a tough spot. It's better to just fold these hands early. C bet around half and checking it all the way down is fine no point in betting the river.


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Thanks mate, good stuff, do you he Poker Snowie or similar?

Agree its not a massive error either way to check or bet but just on the GTO play, would you agree against an opponent of 'average' ability it may be good to cbet because they fold more than normal because the king is the board? So this would be an exploitive play?

Yes sizing is important because you can access fold equity and keep in the hands that you will beat by the river?

Finally it would be interesting to see how the hand would be played post flop with EF stacks of around 30bbs? (Five handed, fold pre?)

I looked at Snowie after posting and noticed that it prefers 1/4 pot for that spot and would often bet all the underpairs (even QQ at some frequency) with that size. (77 is a clear check if you pick a PSB for your strategy).
Exploitatively, you might decide to harness the fold equity with a one-and-done c-bet approach, but there's also an argument for checking when villain is passive/stationy, as he's unlikely to bluff you off the best hand, thus allowing you to minimise your losses when he has you beat (you simply check-fold for no post-flop loss), while also giving you a decent chance of realising your equity and getting to showdown cheaply.
77 is somewhere in the mid-strength of the range, so there isn't a clearly dominant strategy. The "GTO play" would presumably be fairly similar to whatever is best against an "average" player. It's usually only with the more extreme ends of your range where an exploitative approach can be clearly more profitable than the GTO/balanced strategy. e.g. With JTs in the wrong suit, betting with no equity would probably be a blunder vs a "GTO opponent", but against a fit-or-fold loose player, bluffing with no equity could be quite profitable, because he's literally folding at an exploitable frequency.

With 30bb stacks, I think it's still a raise pre, but probably a minraise, and it would be bottom of your range. (I'd usually fold 66).