Originally Posted by Drew Lingidiot

Hey all,

I really, really, really am at wits end trying to pivot from Short stacking to "real poker". After yet two more sessions of losing multiple BI's at the micro's (5nl atm) I am about to throw in the towel and go back to short stacking full time.

I got cardrunners in Feb and watched the entire series on micro's by Bryster (sp?) and am 1/2 way through the ones by Veneer (sp?). I have read Fee's guide to 6max. I have trolled the posts. They look great, information makes sense, and I leave with a feeling that yeah this makes great sense.

Problem is I get to the table and continue to win small pots with good hands, lose huge pots with good hands. I watch people playing 60% of there hands go at each other like its Friday Night at the all-you-can-eat buffett and Q high ends up winning a huge pot. Then when I enter the hand with decent cards (read AQ, AK, TT, etc), catch a good flop ie 2 pair and get my money in good, only to have some 70/5 catch a staight or flush on river, or wake up with the lone set I have seen him play all night. Make no mistake, I am not even close to saying the site is rigged, just that I seem to have an inordinate amount of times where my made hands get beat.
Prove this to yourself if you haven't already.

So okay these are coolers, bad beats, whatever, I get it "poker happens". The question is I don't ever seem to get the other side, I flop a set and no one wants to play, I win 6-12BB and move on. I can't seem to get the fish to bite.
Over how many hands is this?
It is unlikely imo that your opponents are reacting to you and outplaying you but it is possible. How are you playing sets?

It is also just frustrating to have like AQ, see a flop of KJ3r, c-bet, get called, turn comes another J, fire second barrel, called, River garbage, check, check guy turns over T's. Switch the situation and I call it down and sure enough guy has a J. Get my K's beat by guy playing J7s and hits a 7 on flop, calls the pot bet and hits his second 7 on turn. I just can not accept that EVERY time these guys playing 60/12 have the 7. Maybe I should, but then I will be folding to every raise or shove?? Doesn't seem profitable. Maybe thats the first major leak.
If they call down too much then just bet good hands.
Do they raise and shove the same hands they call with?

In addition, I seem to have a wealth of information swimming around in my hand and cant seem to implement.
It can take time. I don't think I could have learnt much quicker had I found 2+2 earlier, stuff took a while to sink in.

Examples, Veneer quotes C-bet as one of the biggest leaks as players will learn to c/r the crap out of you. Yet I have heard at micros that thats one of the most important tools to learn where you stand.
What stakes was he playing? I haven't heard of him but I'm sure one can cb profitably in many spots.

Fee says dont use HUD at micros, play your game and get a feel for what 60/40 and 20/17 looks like, cause at higher levels 22/17 can mean so many different things.
That is just advice. You can take it or not.

Fee also says not to ever bluff in the micro's cause no one will believe ya anyway. I can belive that, but how does that fit with a C-bet a missed board, is that not a bluff?
Well you often have the best hand when you cbet even though you didn't hit the flop so not really.

So I will end this rant with a few questions.

1) At 5nl, 2 tabling, what is a decent session going to yield in bb/100?? what about a good session? And when do you throw in the towel for he night and leave 2BI, 3BI?
Depends, sorry.

2) While I would love to get to Level 3 thinking, I can't even get good at level 1. I don't even understand what my game should look like. So while its great to aspire to Level 2 and 3, what are the basics of simple ABC level 1 play that I am missing?
OK getting to 'level 3 thinking' at 5NL is not the idea. The levels thing is a useful idea but if your opponents are level 0 or 1 then your level 3 is something like 'i know that he doesn't give a **** that i know that he really doesn't care what i have he has pretty cards and will give me money every time i have a better hand.'

3) At 5nl and 10nl, do I really just fold to every shove if all I have is TPTK? Cause I see SOOOOO many hands where crap beats crap, but when I catch, I always seem to catch their best. Am I not giving these guys enough credit to read me as somewhat tight and only push good hands against me?
What are they shoving? If they are shoving worse hands often enough then call. If not, don't. It is possible that they are playing you differently but you should be able to pick up on this or at least investigate the possibility.

4) Finally, how good of a hand on the flop should I need to shove? I see in the videos they shove TPTK against 70/10 player and always win (duh they wouldnt show the loses). I mean I could make a video if all I needed was 4 good hand examples.
Will they call with enough worse hands?

5) I still have 3 weeks of Cardrunenrs left, are there videos of just people playing micros with their thoughts instead of the powerpoint style?
No idea

6) Whats the thoughts on c-bet's, how often, how much and would you EVER slow play at the micros.
Depends (obv) If you want a quick heuristic then don't cbet multiple players cbet hu quite a lot. Slowplay when you think you will win more money overall but as they call with crap a lot apparently why would you need to slowplay? Other possibilities are 6-handed as sb with a set vs an ep pfr where you can get a few bets from late players before you cr. But generally you don't slowplay without a good reason and never slowplaying would not cost a lot imo.

7) HUD, yes or no for micros?
Up to you.

8) table selection (the meat of the first 4 videos by Veneer) are you really that picky at 5nl and 10 nl where traffic is insane and no table stays together anyway. Or are people jumping around tables to "chase" the right table.
I'm sure you could up your winrate by table selecting.

Thanks in advanced for helpful comments.

Originally Posted by Drew Lingidiot

1) At 5nl, 2 tabling, what is a decent session going to yield in bb/100?? what about a good session? And when do you throw in the towel for he night and leave 2BI, 3BI?
well any winning session is decent but 4+bb/100 should be a good starting goal. with the amount of fish at 5nl its obv possible to have much higher win rates

2) While I would love to get to Level 3 thinking, I can't even get good at level 1. I don't even understand what my game should look like. So while its great to aspire to Level 2 and 3, what are the basics of simple ABC level 1 play that I am missing?

ABC is tight aggressive. if you have pokertracker and you're at 6max if you stick to playing 16/16 or around that you should be winning nicely at 5nl. you need to stop calling so much and learn to raise more often. you should almost never limp although there are some spots

3) At 5nl and 10nl, do I really just fold to every shove if all I have is TPTK? Cause I see SOOOOO many hands where crap beats crap, but when I catch, I always seem to catch their best. Am I not giving these guys enough credit to read me as somewhat tight and only push good hands against me?

usually TPTK is not good to being going all in with, obv sometimes it is correct but this is completely dependant from hand to hand

4) Finally, how good of a hand on the flop should I need to shove? I see in the videos they shove TPTK against 70/10 player and always win (duh they wouldnt show the loses). I mean I could make a video if all I needed was 4 good hand examples.

usually they do show hands where they shove and lose to get a point across. if the player is 70/10 then obv shoving TPTK is profitable in the long run but most players are not that bad. for how good a hand should be depends on so many things... i dont know where to begin honestly...

5) I still have 3 weeks of Cardrunenrs left, are there videos of just people playing micros with their thoughts instead of the powerpoint style?

dont know but i used to watch their vids and what you need to do is not try and replicate their hands play for play but instead pick up a technique or 2 from their play and incorporate it into your play...

6) Whats the thoughts on c-bet's, how often, how much and would you EVER slow play at the micros.

i c-bet alot but i wont cbet boards that are really ugly such as i have a small PP and the board is 3 broadway cards or monotone . I pretty much NEVER SLOWPLAY at micros the only exception is i have the absolute nuts... (ie 66 on a 66x board)

7) HUD, yes or no for micros?

not for me i persoanlly prefer to just take notes on players and not rely on what stats tell me

8) table selection (the meat of the first 4 videos by Veneer) are you really that picky at 5nl and 10 nl where traffic is insane and no table stays together anyway. Or are people jumping around tables to "chase" the right table.

I wouldnt bother table selecting at 10NL or lower... a little for 25NL because there are many more regs at this level and up

Thanks in advanced for helpful comments.

Originally Posted by wisdommaster1

hope that somewhat helps and keep reading these forums for so much more info

Originally Posted by Mike Rotherby

I do not think you are respecting the opponent. Why are they still betting ? This is the question I ask myself. When you let it get to the river you are allowing them to make their hands. You need to look at where you stand. I see no shame in pulling out of the betting once it looks dangerous.

Originally Posted by Drew Lingidiot

1) At 5nl, 2 tabling, what is a decent session going to yield in bb/100?? what about a good session? And when do you throw in the towel for he night and leave 2BI, 3BI?

For me a decent session is 10-15bb/100, a good session is 100+,my best ever session was 530 bb/100

2) While I would love to get to Level 3 thinking, I can't even get good at level 1. I don't even understand what my game should look like. So while its great to aspire to Level 2 and 3, what are the basics of simple ABC level 1 play that I am missing?

Play good starting hands in position and valuebet the fish until they are broke

3) At 5nl and 10nl, do I really just fold to every shove if all I have is TPTK? Cause I see SOOOOO many hands where crap beats crap, but when I catch, I always seem to catch their best. Am I not giving these guys enough credit to read me as somewhat tight and only push good hands against me?

TPTK depends on the other guy if he shoves light and you don't mind the variance then call ,if as seems likely the variance bothers you then let it go.Sometimes you just catch the top of everyones range for a bit just keep making the right plays and it will even out over time.


4) Finally, how good of a hand on the flop should I need to shove? I see in the videos they shove TPTK against 70/10 player and always win (duh they wouldnt show the loses). I mean I could make a video if all I needed was 4 good hand examples.

I have called a 140bb shove preflop at 5nl with AQo because I was sure from what I had seen him do I was ahead of his range by a long way.I wouldn't do that if I knew nothing about the guy so like most things in poker the correct answer is it depends

5) I still have 3 weeks of Cardrunenrs left, are there videos of just people playing micros with their thoughts instead of the powerpoint style?


6) Whats the thoughts on c-bet's, how often, how much and would you EVER slow play at the micros.

I c-bet pretty much 100% into 1 opponent ,less into 2 ( it depends on how much i have seen them fold to c-bets plus board texture) and hardly ever into 3 or more.Usually c-bet around 75% of the pot.I only slowplay if I have the nuts on the flop and can't see how anyone will call a bet so I give them a card to catch up.In general don't slowplay as someone with 35o will crack your set of Aces if you give them free cards.

7) HUD, yes or no for micros?

I do but it is up to you.If you don't like depending on the stats or know how to use them then don't.

8) table selection (the meat of the first 4 videos by Veneer) are you really that picky at 5nl and 10 nl where traffic is insane and no table stays together anyway. Or are people jumping around tables to "chase" the right table.

Table selection at 5nl is basically lots of players to the flop,good average pot size and plenty of good size stacks.You have to keep an eye on how your tables are playing because they will go from 70% players to the flop to 20-30 % quite often.If that occurs just find a new table unless you have a really compelling reason to stay.

Thanks in advanced for helpful comments.