Folding KK to flop shove with Ace on board - Beginning Poker Questions

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Folding KK to flop shove with Ace on board

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04-17-2017 , 01:57 PM

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,289

Free tournament game. Nine players at the table. Blinds 300/600. Stacks all around 10,000. I'm out of position with KK. Mid-to-late position villain raises to 3BB (1,800). I re-raise to 3,000. Villain calls after thinking for a while. No read on opponent's style as first time playing against her.

Flop comes A-rag-rag. I check and villain shoves all in.

Are my Kings destined for the gutter? Or am I facing a bluff? Any feedback appreciated.

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04-17-2017 , 02:09 PM

osirus0830

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 540

You have no choice but to fold once you check flop. That spot is a mandatory c bet imo. If you get called then you can fold to additional pressure if villain's line makes sense.

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04-17-2017 , 02:41 PM

ArtyMcFly

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

You have <17bb, pocket kings and are facing a 3bb open. Jam it in. Nothing else makes any sense. If you jam, you either pick up 4.5bb uncontested, or villain calls off with worse and you usually double up. It's win-win.

When you 3-bet for 30% of your stack and get called, you end up with about a pot-sized bet in your stack, but you can't bet and get called by worse on that flop, which makes it a sigh/puke/check-fold.

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04-17-2017 , 04:09 PM

the_glaive

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 385

Ugly.

I remember Dan Harrington writing in one of his books that if you're not sure what your opponent has, assume it's an Ax hand. Players hate to fold an Ace, even a weak one.

You have to fold to the shove on the flop, but you created a difficult situation for yourself by not shoving pre. On the flop, with an Ace on the board, you're basically committing yourself with a continuation bet, which I am guessing is why you didn't make one - you were hoping your opponent would check down.

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04-17-2017 , 04:21 PM

madlex

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Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 17,412

Quote:

Originally Posted by osirus0830

You have no choice but to fold once you check flop. That spot is a mandatory c bet imo. If you get called then you can fold to additional pressure if villain's line makes sense.

Why is it a mandatory cbet? Which worse hands call us?

If we cbet, what sizing would you suggest? We have a little over a potsize bet left in our stack.

ArtyMcFly nailed it, doing anything but going all in preflop is a huge mistake.

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04-17-2017 , 05:25 PM

bigpeen

journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 265

Having KK with and A on the flop can be tough to fold, which is why I would pretty much always get it all in preflop and forget about it. You get it in with the best hand.

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04-17-2017 , 05:53 PM

otatop

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,721

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly

You have <17bb, pocket kings and are facing a 3bb open. Jam it in. Nothing else makes any sense.

Especially not clicking it back.

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04-18-2017 , 12:46 PM

Mr. Small Blind

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

By raising 6BB youre creating at best a 2:1 SPR (could be less cus you didnt mention whats already in the pot).

Its a pre flop shove.

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04-20-2017 , 01:17 AM

goldFishshark

grinder

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 402

+n to what's been said already. The situation was created because of the awkward preflop play. Unfortunately, it's not possible without a time machine and a xray to know what the right decision was, but folding was most likely correct in this specific hand. Next time, just jam preflop. Typically when you have ~<15bb, you should be playing shove/fold anyway.

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04-21-2017 , 02:59 PM

#10

Bene Gesserit

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 6,365

Small stakes tournament? KK? 10-15 BB? All in pre flop is the right play. V will almost always call with a strong A in a T, but will often fold an A rag os.

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04-21-2017 , 03:10 PM

#11

badbeatles

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 225

You are giving villain way too good a price to come along.. Villains holdings only need about 22% equity to continue. Given awkward stack size I think it's easier to just shove pre and chip up..

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04-22-2017 , 03:18 AM

#12

Hrmmmm

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 407

Do realize that by shoving hands you make the game easier to play. While shoving may have been the best play in this situation, any profitable player understands the 3-bet game. This just wasn't the time for it.

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04-29-2017 , 12:03 AM

#13

Ray Zee

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,916

definitely learn how to size bets according to your stack and his. that is more important than what hands you play.

you blew it here and your decision to fold or call is solely based on what you think the chances are of him bluffing you here.

and if you dont have a good idea of his play it makes it even worse that you let him see the flop.

but you are a beginner and are not expected to make the best play all the time so dont fret it and just put in your time and improve. good luck.

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