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cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop

05-09-2017 , 11:17 AM
HI,
If I cold call such as from BB vs MP, how many do I have to defend vs. cbet to Idont being exploitable? I have thought that I have to defend 1-A. So if is pot 10$ and vilain cbets 5$ I have to defend 50%. But I read that I dont have to defend so many. why not? how is it meant? how many do I have to defend? thank you for your response
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
05-09-2017 , 12:45 PM
Question 2:
how many times do Ihave to win to be breakeven when villian opens 3bb??
thanks

I was thinking purely on the mathematical side.
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
05-09-2017 , 12:49 PM
this is beginners questions, quit worrying about being exploitable and worry more about exploiting the other players
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
05-09-2017 , 12:59 PM
You don't need to use '1-alpha' on the flop. On many flops, especially where villain has a range advantage, you can x-fold at a high frequency. One of the reasons is that you got better pot odds pre-flop.
e.g. If villain opened for 3bb, the SB folds and you called 2bb, you only voluntarily contributed 2/6.5 = 30.7% of the pot. You effectively only need to win the pot 31% of the time to break even, so it's OK to give up early on if you missed.
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
05-09-2017 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
You don't need to use '1-alpha' on the flop. On many flops, especially where villain has a range advantage, you can x-fold at a high frequency. .
Could you show me one example where you x/fold at a high frequency becouse of range advantage such as BB vs. BTN? you would greatly help me. thanks
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
05-10-2017 , 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK1991
Could you show me one example where you x/fold at a high frequency becouse of range advantage such as BB vs. BTN? you would greatly help me. thanks
OK, I'm not gonna do the exact numbers, partly because I don't have a solver, but hopefully you'll get the gist.

BTN opens for 2.5x, BB calls with maybe 18-20% of hands (he 3-bets mostly linearly for 10%+ more), the flop comes two Broadways and a small card (like AQ7) with no FD or OESD, BTN c-bets 2/3 pot.
BB's range is pretty weak here. He has fewer top pairs (and they are often dominated by a barreling range), some mid pairs (Qx) and bottom pairs (7x) that will rarely be able to get to showdown cheaply, some gutters (e.g. KT/JT), a load of useless underpairs (55 etc), and total air (like T8s, 65s).
BB should cut his losses and fold at least 50% of his range.

BB's aim is not to "prevent exploitation" by another player. He should be focusing on trying to maximise his own EV. On bad flops, or in bad situations (e.g. facing a large bet), that means only a small proportion of his range can continue profitably, so he folds more often.
In the long run in BTN vs BB spots, the BTN will pick up maybe 65% of the dead money, while the BB gets 35%. If they play optimally, both players make money on average, because of the 1.5bb of dead money that was forced into the pot pre-flop that created the pot odds for BB's call. On some boards, the BTN realizes much more EV than usual (from hand equity and fold equity), because of range advantage. On others, where the BB's range does well, the BB doesn't fold so often, so he gets a bigger share of the pot on average.
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
05-10-2017 , 12:21 PM
but why in situation like:
UTG open 3bb
hero call on BTN 3BB
the others fold
POT: 7.5BB
flop is XXX and UTG cbet 66% of pot or 50% of pot and my defend depends on his cbet sizing

where is the difference?
thank you so much
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
05-10-2017 , 01:28 PM
So you are worried about the difference between calling getting 3 to 1 (1/2 pot) and folding getting 2.5 to 1 (2/3 pot)? As you can see, it's not much. 3.5% equity in the hand .. or not even 1 out!

You shouldn't look at these spots just from a mathematical sense without also including both your opponent's and your ranges of hole cards .. and how those ranges connect with the board.

PF math is fairly straight forward but still needs to be 'ranged'. Post-Flop you need to start adding in the elements of poker, not just cards. Otherwise you become exploitable. If your opponent knows that you are working off of these types of statistics he 'can' just bet 1.25 pot or more every c-bet knowing you will auto-fold a huge percentage of your range. GL
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
05-10-2017 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK1991
but why in situation like:
UTG open 3bb
hero call on BTN 3BB
the others fold
POT: 7.5BB
flop is XXX and UTG cbet 66% of pot or 50% of pot and my defend depends on his cbet sizing
where is the difference?
When you flat pre-flop on the button, your range needs to be much stronger than when you close the action in the BB, partly because of the pot odds and partly because you can still get squeezed. Even if you could guarantee that both blinds would fold, you're contributing 3bb to a 7.5bb pot, so you kind of need to need to win it 40% of the time (3/7.5 =0.40). [Remember it was only 31% for the BB in an earlier example.] Since you have a strong range and you'll be in position, you'll actually be able to continue past the flop very often (much more than 1-alpha in most situations).
(On some of the more connected/dynamic boards, pseudo GTO solutions show the BTN only folding at 20% frequency, because floating in position is so profitable. The BB, by contrast, can't float very often, because he has a wider/weaker range - because of the cheap pot odds pre-flop - and he's OOP.)

To put it slightly differently, when the BTN calls a 3x open, it's only profitable if he gets back more than 3bb on average in the long run, so he needs a narrow/strong range to enter the pot. With a strong cold-calling range (maybe 8-10% of hands) that plays well IP vs the PFR, the BTN will get back more than 3bb pretty often, because he won't be folding on the flop very often, and will often get +EV semi-bluffing chances (and can take free cards).
The BB only needs to call 2bb pre, so he calls much wider (at least 20%), but it's still going to be hard to win more than 2bb when he's OOP and with a wide/weak range, so he has to fold to c-bets at a higher frequency.

This is just one of many reasons why 1-alpha isn't all that useful. Being IP or OOP has a huge effect on your ability to realize equity. If 1-alpha actually worked, you'd presumably have the same c-betting and folding frequencies in every position, but this doesn't happen in practice. You c-bet and call more often when you have position, and you check-fold more often when OOP.
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
06-09-2017 , 08:31 AM
Hi, now I was wondering why this logic can not be used in situations like UTG vs. BU? thank you so much

ArtyMcFly btw what limit do you play if is not secret?
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
06-09-2017 , 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK1991
ArtyMcFly btw what limit do you play if is not secret?
It varies. I mostly stick with micros, as I play for fun. This week I lost 3 buyins in 600 hands of 5NL and about a hundred bucks in tourneys, because I am the worst player of all time. I have a thread in PG&C. #GTOpenguin
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
06-09-2017 , 06:14 PM
worst player all the time? you understand poker beter than most people according to what I read here
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote
06-10-2017 , 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK1991
but why in situation like:
UTG open 3bb
hero call on BTN 3BB
the others fold
POT: 7.5BB
flop is XXX and UTG cbet 66% of pot or 50% of pot and my defend depends on his cbet sizing

where is the difference?
thank you so much

Your defending shouldn't really have anything to do with his c bet sizing (unless it's a truly weird cbet.)

You really should focus on his general c-betting habits and range given his position at the table.

Given your example, someone who leads out UTG can be expecting to have a pretty narrow but top-heavy range. However if the flop comes low and he reliably cbets, you can definitely consider floating him with any decent holding.

On the other hand if he has a low c-bet frequency and he comes out firing you can fold out some of your pairs profitably and confidently.

Last edited by TheGull; 06-10-2017 at 06:04 AM.
cold call Defend from BB and defend on flop Quote

      
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