I feel I should point to PokerSchoolOnline for absolute beginners.

Felix Schneiders, Gareth Chantler, Tyler Frost have produced videos that are in the archive. The site certainly has it's limitations, and I wouldn't advise posting in the forum other than the hand analysis ones, but for a 'free' site it's not a bad introduction.

Just don't expect to be allowed independent thought in some of the forums, they ban you for that ****, just exploit the site for your own means.

The problem with most free content is that it gives a 'system' for beating the microstakes rather than teaching the viewer to think about poker for themselves. The problem with Blackrain's videos (and indeed books) is that he does nothing more than this. Yes, you will learn to copy him and thus beat microstakes games. No, it will not make you any more likely to be able to progress beyond that. GrinderSchool's coaches aim (and from my experience, succeed) at helping with thought processes through the presentation of content with both specific and abstract elements.

Going back to Ivey League for a moment, what is the difference between the Bachelors and the Masters subscription? Is the Masters worth the extra expense?

Glad this thread has been created.

Anyone else on RIO essentials that can recommend any decent coaches on there around 25nl / 50nl.

thanks

Depends where you are. If you know how to play pretty well already, yeah.

Just to update this: I poked around @ RIO and IL and saw what they had to offer. Bottom line? I don't like the quality of the sites, I don't like the quality of the videos, and they offer absolutely no trial of any kind.

I really don't know what a few of you see in these two sites. Grinderschool? Good site. DeucesCracked? Great site. Cardrunners looks great, too. The few videos I've seen on there were phenomenal. When it comes to anything else out there right now - I'm extremely unimpressed. DC still obviously has, by far, the largest customer base and I don't think that's simply a product of more aggressive marketing.

Hey, to each their own but for my $30/mo. I can't find anything else out there that's like DC. I have my rakeback set up through them, the forums receive a lot of traffic, there's blogs and news daily, and the coaches are all extremely friendly and accessible to any user of the site. On top of this, DC has some great features like the recruiting bonuses and if you rake $50+ a month you get DC for free. Also, things like the notepad on the side of videos, the ability to download as many videos to your HDD as you want, and the fact that you can link your comments on a video to a specific minute/second of the video, all makes this a very, very comfortable place for me to study and train right now.

What am I missing here that have some of you so against DC at this point?

RIO and Ivey League are the cutting-edge in terms of theory videos. DC doesn't really have anyone saying anything that's not just recycling stuff that's been around for a year or so. They also have better live play videos from people who actually beat today's games. DC hasn't updated their coaching roster in long enough that I wouldn't feel confident taking advice from them (the exception being WiltOnTilt).

Is there anything in place at DC to stop you from downloading a tone of videos with just the free trial?

No.. that's been well known for years and addressed many times by DC people.. even here in BQ. Part of their thinking is that they believe people will enjoy their videos so much that they'll want to actually subscribe to get the new content.

Videos are a waste of time. Just a way to prevent pirating by bloating up 5 pages worth of material into 40 minutes and 200 megabytes.

So I guess here in 2014 you still prefer books that aren't interactive, up to date, or relevant in any way, shape, or form?

Hmm I don't agree. I like even prefer to watch videos then read a book matter of taste and besides you can't have sweat session in a book.

I've had a month of DC (maybe 2 if they have a free trial), a free trial of DTB and a month of grinder school.

I've had the month of GS for 2 days now and already downloaded enough videos to make the ~£13 it cost me a non-expense and that's about 16 videos*.

DC was also very good, some absolute classic videos on there although I wasn't as in the know as I should have been to take advantage of good coaches still there, if there are any.

DTB was pretty meh but the BR videos are essential to a lot of people but they were a bit below me and not really my style.

I can't say that I'd be a regular subscriber on any site that allowed me to download videos though, the new updates don't make up for it. Maybe twice a year would be > enough.

Non of this necessarily applies to more high stakes sites though, never been a member and I'm not good enough to know if the monthly videos are needed to keep you up to date with the games. I do doubt it though, especially at the prices charged.

*I am a fan of TDA, I'm not a huge fan of carroters from the few forum interactions I've had with him but have only heard good things about him from people much better than myself at poker. I can also say the couple of TDA's videos that I have seen are worth watching without being brilliant. Whereas some WiltOnTilt videos I've seen are must watches and from like 4 years ago which is pretty unheard of.

I'm not at the cutting edge and I'm not a high stakes player. I just take one concept and work on it. It takes a lot of effort. I'm not trying to just read or watch a video for "gospel" effect, motivation or, looking for that silver bullet that's going to transform my game. I think a book written from a few years ago is still relevant especially at small stakes and below where people don't even understand the basics. And printed material gets to the point faster than hearing some guy ramble for on and on.

ya sweat sessions are useful, but even better is to go through your own hand histories.

I disagree with this completely. In fact the goal of my content both in my videos and books is the exact opposite of what you have said here.

What I find more interesting about your comments though (in this thread and others related to the poker training industry) is the pure volume of your opinions (which are often ignorant) especially as someone who admits to working for one of the main sites being discussed. Maybe I am just old school but I believe in simply keeping your mouth shut when there is any sort of conflict of interest involved and letting others decide for themselves.

I think the point is that DC is successful enough that it can afford to allow these unlimited downloads, whereas other sites do not during the free trial, and in turn they do increase their sales by word of mouth and association since their videos are out there all over the place.

The fact is that for years DC and Cardrunners were considered, hands down, the best training sites. I don't really see how that's changed and DC truly does seem to pay for itself every month. It's $1 a day.

Again, the quality of DC's videos, the website itself, and the forums contained within, is just so far above and beyond the other sites out there that it's hard for me to justify actually spending a monthly subscription rate anywhere else.

The fact that RIO and IL don't offer trials or downloads of any kind certainly doesn't help their cause. DC has been doing this for years already.

This is kinda harsh TDA is a great contributor and asset to BQ, though if I'm being honest i have wondered in the past if he was affiliated with grinders school with the amount of recommendations he gives for it.

I'm sorry, but having seen some of your videos and read your books, I don't think you succeed at what it is you try to do then. I think your books/videos have a purpose - and perhaps I've been too extreme, they do teach some element of thinking for one's self, just on a very basic level and the source of many numbers which are offered is not explained - but I think that treating them without a good degree of scepticism will ultimately hinder a new player's path to 25NL/50NL or higher.

I offer opinions/advice in most BQ threads where I feel I can offer expertise, so I don't think that those I offer in training site threads are themselves excessive. I've been subbed to pretty much every site with NL cash content at some point in the past couple of years, most within the past year, and this has put me in a position where, far from my opinions being ignorant (perhaps you've got this impression from my criticism of some parts of your books), I'm more qualified to offer opinions on the comparative merit of training sites than nearly anyone else.

Saying that there is a conflict of interest is pushing it. Yes, I produce videos for GrinderSchool. I am not employed by GrinderSchool. No, I'm not in any way remunerated for mentioning it in forum threads, and I do not have any stake in the continued success of the site beyond them being able to continue purchasing my videos, and all of these opinions are my own. Indeed, before I became a GrinderSchool instructor, I was very much put off by the whole microstakes focus, believing that everything would be painfully simple. I've watched a fair few videos from there since becoming an instructor, and I've been very surprised by the quality of advice being given, and I believe that my own advice comes from a very sound theoretical basis.

As it seems that I haven't made myself clear enough in the past based on "[ ]"'s post, I will start including a disclaimer similar to the above paragraph in any post in which I mention GS (I've intended to mention the scope of my affiliation in the past but it's possible that a couple of times I've overlooked it). The reason for the frequency of mentioning it is because this is BQ, and I honestly believe it is the best resource for a good number of people who ask questions here. I don't believe that my statements fall foul of 2p2's advertising policy, and I wouldn't call them advertisement at all.

I agree it is harsh given that TDA put a lot of free stuff out there but I do think that he shouldn't be allowed to pimp GrinderSchool to the extent that he is (Not even saying it is a lot but any non 0% amount raises a conflict of interest IMO).

One of the posts, it might even be in this thread, I cant be bothered scrolling up, says that there is no financial incentive to the promotion, that's not really true though as if GrinderSchool stops making money then they cant pay those who makes videos.

Absolutely no offence meant to TDA though - I just think it shouldn't be allowed or there should be something pointing out that he is a GrinderSchool coach other than just the odd mention of it in posts.

Focusing on just these two sites (RIO & IL), for a microstakes player, which one of the two would you recommend they use if they could only use one?

Probably RIO, the only Bachelors-tier Ivey pros that I think are very good are Apotheosis (and he does one Bachelors a month) and OMGClayDol (forgot his 2p2 but he has a PGC).

Sounds good. Thanks.

As much as I've pumped up DC so far, I want to really be fair here and also ensure that I don't miss out on any training material that can really benefit me so I went ahead and just subbed to both RIO and IL's $9 basic memberships for a month to get a feel for things.

I will admit that RIO has a lot to offer that I was not aware of. After really looking around before, I saw some stuff I definitely like. The points system and how you can earn a free Elite membership each month is fantastic and the amount of traffic on the forums, as well as the amount of videos put up weekly, is way beyond what I first thought.

We'll see how it goes. Still, in just a few days of a DC sub I've downloaded like 150 microstakes cash game videos and 90% of them are just from the last few months. They simply have *tons* of content on there.

In fairness to TDA, and I understand his frustration on this one, he did kind of go over and above in bulletproofing that he was not promoting the site and he was OVERLY open and straightforward about being a coach at Grinderschool. The fact is that he didn't even sell anyone on Grinderschool in the end. He sold them on RIO. He doesn't have any affiliation with RIO, does he?

Due to his contributions in this thread, at least one person (me and who knows how many others out there) discovered material that he would not have known about otherwise. I'm glad he posted here and with what I'm seeing now that I'm looking at all of these sites together, in the end he was probably spot on in his analysis of the market with the exception of being too critical of DC, imo.

I don't think this is a fair response at all. In fact, I find quite a bit of hypocritical irony in it.

You, sir, make quite a chunk of your income entirely off of developing videos for DragTheBar, do you not? You're a coach, a writer of books, and you create videos for DragTheBar. How on earth can you criticize someone's opinion because they simply make a video now and then for a site that directly competes with you personally for customers in the exact same target market?

As for you believing that people should just "keep their mouths shut" when there is "any soft of conflict of interest involved in letting others decide for themselves" - ridiculous. Basically, you're sitting here stating that you don't believe in the process of sales and marketing for a product. Aren't you BlackRain79? Don't you have websites, mailing lists, blogs, books, videos, etc all out there on the internet and in people's email boxes trying to get them to purchase your products? What happened to letting them decide for themselves? Am I deciding for myself when I open my email and have four letters from you in three days about how I should purchase Crushing The Microstakes 2?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that your post has a little something to do with the fact that on all of these threads on 2p2, repeatedly DragTheBar is universally agreed upon as the worst option out there as a poker video training site. I can assure you, sir, that your work over on DTB is at least partially responsible for this negative criticism. Without turning this into a huge, in depth review of your videos I will just say that what TheDefiniteArticle says about your products (which he is totally entitled to believe) is exactly how I and many others feel about them too.

In MY opinion: You are a terrible, terrible source for a new player in today's games of poker. You caused me personally, and others I know personally, weeks and months of backwards progress that we had to undo through a ton of hard work and training before we could start becoming profitable. You do not understand today's games, you do not understand the US market, and you absolutely, 100% as TDA states, do more to teach players how to "beat the microstakes" than "establish a proficient poker foundation". Don't you realize that you are mostly responsible for the cbetting misunderstandings and leaks that exist in the microstakes today? You still, as I'm writing this, promote cbetting 80%+ in almost all situations. You're insane. All competent players are taking players who are using your cbetting concepts and exploiting the living death out of them on the turn and river. It's happening day in and day out. Good players who keep up with theory (and sources other than yours) have now adapted and plugged their leaks but trust me, your concepts which stem from playing in the absolute softest games on earth, have caused tremendous issues here at the microstakes in more competitive games filled with more regulars who work at and study the game daily. These players are levels ahead of the concepts you teach, even in CTM2014.

In CTM2014 you back off (finally) on some ridiculous ideas like opening 5x from UTG and then cutting that down to 2.5 or 3x by the BTN. Obviously you saw that was being exploited to death, too. The thing is that you don't really cut back on these concepts until numerous of your subscribers keep hammering you about it, explaining that it simply gets them exploited, and then you finally just basically let it go entirely and tell them "yeah, nevermind" in so many words.

The thing is that you really don't even seem to understand what your subscribers want and need. I'll be totally honest here: Those of us spending 80+ hours a week on our game really don't need your assistance in loading up 8 tables of full ring on Pokerstars 2nl and profiting. Nobody's really even attempting to do this. This isn't anyone's goal. We want to drastically, and rapidly, increase our understanding of the game and the games of today so that we can profit, increase our bankroll, and move up in stakes. The goal is NOT to profit in the microstakes, it's to profit in the mid+ stakes. What your products pretty much require a player to do is sign up, learn how to profit in the microstakes, build a bankroll, eventually move up to 25nl, get absolutely decimated and realize they know nothing about the game now, and then wind up back in 5nl at square one having to relearn the game from the ground up and undo all of the bad habits you've personally caused them and charged them money for. You totally just glaze over any foundation building and skip to "this is how you profit". You even say it repeatedly in your videos. Things like "ehhh, see here with TPTK in this situation I'm just folding even though I have the best hand. I'm avoiding marginal spots. My goal here is to make money". By not even playing hands like this and instructing people to "avoid marginal situations", sure you're giving some good advice for a micros player but you're teaching us absolutely nothing about poker. You're teaching us how to cut our negative variance down at times and marginally boost our winrate. You're not teaching poker to beginners - you're teaching conservative economics of a sort and even those concepts are leaving tons of money on the table for us.

I don't think, but rather I know, I've gone on long enough here. I could obviously say more as I've spent countless hours watching your videos, applying your concepts, watching other's videos, applying those concepts, etc, etc. This is why I'm so opinionated on the subject. In the last couple of months I have made tons of progress in my game and my understanding of concepts that were, just at the beginning of the spring, way over my head. None, and I mean none, of my progress was a result of anything other than getting away from your mentality entirely and spending time on other material written by people who have gone farther in the game and succeeded at a higher level than you.

I mean, I'm sure you're a nice guy and you mean well, but when you come into a thread like this and publicly call someone out, I believe that I as a customer of yours have every right to voice my opinion like this. You opened the door for it. Remember, I have absolutely NO conflict of interest here. I don't work for or make videos for anybody. I'm a micros/small stakes player who got involved in the game months ago and has done virtually nothing else since. This is my opinion of you and your teachings and others are absolutely free to do whatever they wish with it.