BB Overpair (QQ) facing check shove from SB on the flop - Page 2 - Beginning Poker Questions

Duncelanas · 09-02-2012, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickTwist

Ironicly I just read this not 2 days ago in Daniel Negreanus book Hold'em wisdom for all players. It was hard for me to conceptualise just how far this line of thinking can go until I saw what Ray Zee said about this hand in particular: what does he know that I know that he know that I know that he know that I know that he know that I know that... anyways you get the picture. Truth is truth I guess.

Sure, but ideally you want to be thinking one level above your opponent in any given situation. A level 1 villain will beat a level 0 villain, while a level 2 villain will level himself into making mistakes vs the level 0.

And at 5nl zoom I'd reckon most opponents are on level 0. As I said, I don't think we should think too much about our perceived range vs an unknown 5nl zoom villain.

Duncelanas · 09-02-2012, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickTwist

Level 0: what do I have

Level 1: what does he have

Level 2: what does he think I have

Level 3: what does he think I think he has

Level 4: and so on and so on...

FYP.

Not the most important, but that's how it's commonly used in my experience.

denks · 09-02-2012, 02:25 AM

I have always encountered Level 1 as my cards, level 2 as his cards, so I don't think any fixing is required as it appears to be what book you started out with.

QuickTwist · 09-02-2012, 02:26 AM

Thats not the way Daniel described it in the book.

Lets not fight about who killed who...

Dunna100 · 09-02-2012, 03:40 AM

Duncelanas is the new Poster of the Month, and therefore automatically correct

I'm gonna double check just to be sure tho!

Btw, congrats Dunce

CitsVariants · 09-02-2012, 11:59 AM

easy fold. he got a set

Duncelanas · 09-02-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunna100

Duncelanas is the new Poster of the Month, and therefore automatically correct

I'm gonna double check just to be sure tho!

Btw, congrats Dunce

Heh, thank you

And that's just the way I've always heard it used/described and used it myself, I may be wrong or they may both be acceptable. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call "being able to tell what cards I have" an actual "level of thinking" though

denks · 09-02-2012, 07:50 PM

Play live for a bit - you will quickly discover that yes it is

**Ray Zee** · 09-03-2012, 02:47 AM

if you are going anywhere in poker you had better think deeper into the hands and the players .

my post was to put it in your minds and to say it is something you should add into your decision, just like adding that you have a backdoor draw when deciding to make a call.
small things can sway a decision one way or the other.

smackjack22 · 09-03-2012, 03:17 AM

I have no idea how you can fold here at 2/5 cent blinds with an over pair.I must not have enough patience... min raising to 10 cents and than calling 30 cents means aa/kk/ must have a set when checking on flop and going all in over the top after?? How??? AA/KK would be a good chance before the flop and if he has a set there you kinda have to pay off. IMO if you make these folds without having a crap load of hands on your opponent its a losing play and a very hard grind

r0bly0ns · 09-03-2012, 06:37 AM

Thanks for the reposes guys, it seems like opinion is split, but to bring some closure....

Spoiler:

I went with my original read, that he was on a draw, I just didn't think that at this level he would be slow playing aces or kings.

Admittedly I didn't think about the set, but this is a leak that I have identified recently and am trying to work on - I just don't see sets!

PokerStars - $0.05 NL ZOOM - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $3.49
SB: $4.33
Hero (BB): $6.19
UTG: $4.98
UTG+1: $4.34
UTG+2: $4.02
MP: $3.71
MP+1: $7.36
CO: $5.13

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Q

Q

fold, fold, UTG+2 raises to $0.10, fold, MP+1 calls $0.10, fold, fold, SB calls $0.08, Hero raises to $0.40, UTG+2 calls $0.30, fold, SB calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.30, 3 players) 8

2

9

SB checks, Hero bets $0.85, fold, SB raises to $3.93 and is all-in, Hero calls $3.08

Turn: ($9.16, 2 players) 6

River: ($9.16, 2 players) T

SB shows J

T

(One Pair, Tens) (Pre 18%, Flop 23%, Turn 11%)
Hero shows Q

Q

(Flush, Queen High) (Pre 82%, Flop 77%, Turn 89%)
Hero wins $8.78

Thats right, he shoved with an up and down.....

r0bly0ns · 09-03-2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunna100

If you're gonna squeeze, then raise more pre, you've barely doubled the pot there. You can make it $.7-.9 quite happily and price out the speculative hands.

With pocket Qs I was going for value, not the squeeze, hence the 3x+1. In my (admittedly limited) experience at $5NL Zoom QQ in this position is usually good, especially if someone has just raised 2x. I've had people raise from all positions 2x and then call a re-raise with hands as bad as 89 off...

However this could just be my small sample size - what do others think?

TensRUs · 09-03-2012, 09:17 AM

I guess villain thought his overs were live also lol. Although this time a call might have been correct, I don't think it is most of the time since it's Zoom and ranges are typically stronger

philmcneal · 09-03-2012, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TensRUs

I guess villain thought his overs were live also lol. Although this time a call might have been correct, I don't think it is most of the time since it's Zoom and ranges are typically stronger

+1 don't be results oriented, i wouldn't cry folding in this spot ever

but if villy was 50/0 then i'll snap call

**Ray Zee** · 09-03-2012, 03:08 PM

your thought process and actions were good. i personally like to raise larger as i can narrow the field more often even if i just get the blinds or limp money. this way i can use more skill heads up or three way rather than more multiway.