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Bad fold?

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10-16-2016 , 09:41 AM

Cirly_Fries

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 28

Hey guys, just played this hand and was wondering if i made the right decision laying it down. I felt like i was beat...

Dealt to Hero [As Qc]
folds
Villain: raises 50 to 100
Hero: raises 150 to 250
folds, folds, folds, folds, folds
Villain: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [4s 5d Kc]
Villain: checks
Hero: bets 400
Villain: calls 400
*** TURN *** [4s 5d Kc] [Ah]
Villain: checks
Hero: checks
*** RIVER *** [4s 5d Kc Ah] [8c]
Villain: bets 711
Hero: folds
Uncalled bet (711) returned to Villain
Villain collected 1423 from pot

Thanks in advance!

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10-16-2016 , 09:44 AM

sixfour

should be called sevenfour

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 74,766

please convert your hand histories
please don't edit your hand histories
please post stacks
please post reads

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10-16-2016 , 10:28 AM

Cirly_Fries

newbie

Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by arturo55

You bet the flop as an out an out bluff. I suppose ok but something I rarely do.
When the Ace came on the turn it look like you might have a king and are checking because you fear the Ace.
When the river is basically a blank and now you arent affraid of the Ace anymore. IMO Your bet is Very Fishy.

What do you mean is fishy about it? isnt it a normal cbet in position?

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10-16-2016 , 07:27 PM

ArtyMcFly

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

Post the full hand history if possible. In a 100bb cash game, I think this is a snap-call on the river (you check back the turn to under-rep your hand, planning to call just about all rivers), but based on the bet sizes, I'm presuming it's a tourney hand. ICM/bubble factors, along with reads could mean the hand should be played totally differently.

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10-16-2016 , 10:37 PM

ChrisV

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 40,336

This is a hand where you really shouldn't try too hard to put villain on a hand because nothing makes a lot of sense. If villain can beat AQ then his bet sizing on the river is odd, but the way the hand played out it's hard for him to have many bluffs or weak value hands. The pot lays you 3 to 1 and you have TPTK, just shrug and call. I've seen people show up here with hands like KQ, 99, AJ, etc.

Also 8 handed reraising an UTG+1 raise from UTG+2 with AQo is a bit too loose unless you have some sort of read on the player.

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10-16-2016 , 11:10 PM

SharkytheFish

adept

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,114

You need to include more information. What limit/buy in is this. What were the stack sizes?
Respect the under the gun raise. Even if you had info to the effect that villain is opening a very wide range utg+1 there's five players to act after you. The 3bet should be roughly 3x the open.
Why did you check back ott. I think the river is a call. Your hand is under repped. A lot of the possible sets and two pair hands in villains range are unlikely given the utg+1 raise and call. Any info on villain would go a long way though. Maybe he does open and flat 3bets utg+1 with low pps or hands A5, A4 etc.

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10-17-2016 , 11:15 AM

Chummer45

banned

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 8

There isn't quite enough information in your post OP to allow anybody to tell you if you made a good fold or not.

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10-17-2016 , 11:43 AM

tiltninja

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chummer45

There isn't quite enough information in your post OP to allow anybody to tell you if you made a good fold or not.

it's a very bad fold and there will need to be the most specific information in the world for it to be otherwise

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10-17-2016 , 12:56 PM

answer20

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10,857

Pretty hard to lay this one down since I don't think you are beat 70% of the time.

It's true that V may have wanted to c/r the Turn. I actually like the check there to induce this kind of bet that can easily be called off. GL

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10-17-2016 , 01:58 PM

#10

sixfour

should be called sevenfour

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 74,766

Quote:

Originally Posted by arturo55

I just dont see how you can fold the river.
The way Villain played the hand I am like 95% sure he is NOT on any kind of draw and you folded top pair with a good kicker.
IF he called your flop bet while on a draw he is mathematically challenged.

Dependent on stacks calling with 76 is perfectly fine there

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10-17-2016 , 04:03 PM

#11

sixfour

should be called sevenfour

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 74,766

He's calling 400 into a near 1k pot, seems fine to me

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10-17-2016 , 09:06 PM

#12

Tutejszy

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,633

Quote:

Originally Posted by arturo55

yea I did the math quickly and didnt see that you are right

there is not "math", unless you wrote entire gametree for that situation. Direct odds are close to meaningless. In general, folding gutshots to one bet is pretty bad.

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10-17-2016 , 09:30 PM

#13

Tutejszy

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,633

im simply attemtping to help you - if you dont want it, fine, but it wouldnt be wise to do so

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10-18-2016 , 02:42 AM

#14

tiltninja

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,937

maths applies to every situation. it's just that it can only be applied given context. in general gutshots constitutes enough equity to continue but that equity comes from more than direct odds. that doesn't make maths or direct odds meaningless. maybe you phrased it wrong but what you said is pretty dumb

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10-18-2016 , 03:04 AM

#15

Tutejszy

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,633

in nlhe you virtually never get correct direct odds, therefore wether or not you have them should be meaningless to your decision making (as the answer is almost always "no"). Relevant math in poker is frequencies on a game tree, not some 1st grade level algebra.

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10-18-2016 , 03:09 AM

#16

tiltninja

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,937

so the size of someone's bet has no effect on your play?

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10-18-2016 , 03:49 AM

#17

Tutejszy

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,633

why would you infer that? ofc it does, pot odds (betsizing) directly dictate unexploitable frequencies

againg, trying to calculate direct pot odds is simply a waste of time and it can only force you to make mistakes (like folding gutshots to one bet)

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10-18-2016 , 03:59 AM

#18

ChrisV

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 40,336

Seems like a semantic issue. Whether I win or lose a single pot doesn't have much influence over whether I win or lose for a session, so it's "close to meaningless" in that sense, but it doesn't mean I don't care whether I win it. Similarly obviously if your direct odds are better, that's preferable, but that doesn't mean that by itself it's useful for determining what your play should be.

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10-18-2016 , 04:05 AM

#19

tiltninja

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tutejszy

how do I not infer that from "direct odds is meaningless"? if direct odds has an effect on unexploitable frequencies then it isn't meaningless

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10-18-2016 , 04:10 AM

#20

Tutejszy

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,633

"wether or not you have them should be meaningless", not "direct odds are meaningless", ie bipolar value of having/not having correct odds is meaningless, while the actual value is meaningful as it's tied to optimal frequencies. Anyway, you guys are right, it's a semantic issue. I've already made my point - don't bother looking at your direct pot odds and worry about other things.

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10-18-2016 , 04:21 AM

#21

tiltninja

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,937

I kind of see what you're trying to say but you're so far away from the point you're trying to say that I'm not sure whether you really get it or you're just really poor at communicating

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10-20-2016 , 10:58 PM

#22

letsgocaps

stranger

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 8

Villian was either slowplaying a set or had nothing. Might have turned 77-JJ and turned his hand into a bluff. Not sure where your positions where at the table but I think the amount hes bluffing there makes sense to call.

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