I know this is a huge subject and I'm not looking for an Idiot's Guide here but more of a discussion to share ideas and thoughts.

So here it is:
Most players have their starting hands and they know when they are going to open raise or fold. But what about when you are caught between the two? When do you open call preflop?

I don't just mean which hands, but how does position and table dynamics affect your decision? What are the factors that influence you and most important, what are the makers or breakers?
Thoughts?

Open Limp? Somewhere around never.



Edit:

Except in passive live 9 or 10 handed games with a bunch of bad players who call a lot and they have good stack sizes then maybe open limp small pairs from EP.

This. There are no real benefits to open limping.

Do you mean like a 1/2 table at The Trop in AC? Because I actually limp in these games, but never limp online.

I realized that I forgot an important part of the question but didn't get back here in time.
So here it is:

When do you call an standard 4xBB raise or less preflop?

Is the answer still never?
The problem here is that if you are going to raise then it should be something like 3x the original bet. That's quite a jump for for the same hand that you would happily have laid out just 4BB for.

Here you go.

I call a raise more against a fish and IP, and close to never OOP.

Yea something like a 1/2 table at the Trop is like what I was thinking.

After reading this and refreshing on the RAISE MOAR post I realized I had been limping/calling way way too much lately, and put the aggressive play into effect. It really does change the hands you are willing to play, as well as your table image, if you always raise and always cbet.

Then this happened.


Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $0.28
BTN: $0.45
SB: $0.75
Hero (BB): $2.05
UTG: $0.83
UTG+1: $0.40
UTG+2: $1.63
MP1: $1.91
MP2: $0.74

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with 9 T
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.05, 2 folds, CO calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.03

Flop: ($0.16) 8 J 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.06, UTG+2 raises to $0.12, CO raises to $0.23 all in, Hero calls $0.17, UTG+2 calls $0.11

Turn: ($0.85) Q (3 players - 1 is all in)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $0.85, Hero raises to $1.77 all in, UTG+2 calls $0.50 all in

River: ($3.55) 2 (3 players - 3 are all in)



In this case I was getting odds to call but didn't want to challenge the initial raiser, who had been feeling his oats lately. So I saw a flop and went from there.

limping says this:

Limper: 'I have a hand that I'm not too sure about - I'd like to see the flop but I don't want to raise because it probably won't play well and I'll be OOP after the flop'

This invites an iso-raise and it often doesn't matter what the iso-raiser has in the pocket because he knows you will not be able to continue the vast majority of the time.

Iso-raiser: 'oh look - a limper with a weak hand who's probably going to call my raise and miss the flop - that's a nice profitable situation'.

Now lets say you have a marginal hand in MP1 (44) you raise - anyone coming after you will have to give you credit for a wider range and they will fold a lot of hands which they would otherwise have iso-raised you with. You might get people set mining you with 66, 77, 88, who will call the raise but fold when they miss and you cbet a board like K52 - profit for you instead of them.. you turn the situation on its head when you raise.

Nice post.

Haven't we played enough poker to realize that NEVER is a HUGE word? I find lots of situations where limping is a good move. For instance, it folds around to me in MP2 and I have 66 in a 25NL FR game. The CO is a lagtard donk who's playing 65/33/4.0 and he's been raising every hand in LP to 3x when he's 1st in or when there are limpers in front of him, but he's also likely to fold to an early or middle position open-raiser. He's got 100BBs. SB & BB are stations and always call a raise when in the blinds. Their stacks are 50BBs and 60BBs. I've got all of 'em covered. CO cbets every flop and is the type of player who's seen Tom Dwan on High Stakes Poker one too many times and thinks aggression always wins. He's likely to stack off w/TPGK-type hands. WHY ON EARTH...WOULD I RAISE HERE??? I limp in, HJ folds, and CO raises to 75c, BTN folds, SB calls, BB calls, I call. Flop comes K J 6 rainbow, SB checks, BB checks, I check, CO bets pot, SB folds, BB calls, I c/r to $10, CO tanks and shoves, BB snap-calls, and I call ofc. CO tables KQo, BB show KJs, and I've got 78% equity in a $66 pot or $50 Sklansky. Yeah, this is one example, perfect storm, sample-size blah-blah. But it's ridiculous to say 'never limp.' 6-max is different, ofc, HU is wayyyy different, ofc, and what these guys say is correct. You rarely wanna have a huge disparity between VPIP and PFR stats, but don't just blanket 2.5-3x every hand you play. Above all...use your head.

i come from the ATC school of poker. ANY TWO CARDS.

A 65/33 is unlikely to call a raise? What?

You've never played against a guy who limps a lot in a passive pf game and raises a lot when first in, but folds pre often to anyone who's shown strength?

I've seen the very rare guys who have a very high VPIP like that and their call open is a good bit lower but even then it's still like 25ish%.

U think # of hands might affect it? A lil bit? Point taken though. I should have proofread my scenario better. Still I think there are spots where it's ok to limp. Just don't make a habit of it, OP.

in SSHE out of the 18 starting hands ed miller recomends playing from early position in tight games he has you limping with 11 so thats 61.11%

in SSHE out of the 28 hands ed miller ecommends playing from early position in loose games he has you limping with 15 so thats 53.57%

since it is highly unlikely you will be opening in what SSHE classifies as a loose game in mid or late position I will not discuss those positions further.

in SSHE out of the 28 hands ed miller has ypu playing from mid position in loose games he reccomends limping with 15 so again that is 53.57%

since in late position in tight games opening includes some stealing hands the following should be taken with a gain of salt although this recommendation is generally correct none the less.

in SSHE out of the 32 hands ed miller recommends Playing from Late position in tight games he has you limping with 15 or 46.88%

so those that opined that you should never open limp or should do so very seldomly are patently incorrect. in fact they should limp with right around 50% of the playable hands in all these senarios.

the fact is that you should never open limp only hold for those extremely tough agressive games filled with near expert players. which is highly unlikely that any beginning or even intermediate level players would ever find themselves in.

so you can see there is a cubit shet load of bad advice out there on this subject. most of which is punctuated by the words "Always or Never"

spend a nice day thinking about your game

Well it is patently incorrect if you believe that Ed Miller is is the be all end all. Which I guess I don't since a lot of what you posted there looks fairly awful to me.


Also if the game is "tight" why in the hell are you only playing 32 hands when it folds to you in LP? 22+,A2+,K2s+,54+,Q8+,J8+,T8+,53s+. That right there is way more than 32 hands .... and if I'm on the button and the blinds are really that tight (like 14/11, 3bet = 3 just as an example) I'll raise 72o and 32o.



EDIT:

Wait, isn't SSHE a book for LIMIT holdem? If so then it really isn't the same thing since I assumed this thread was about NO LIMIT holdem.


Double Edit:

And wasn't it written like forever ago?

Wow. This guy......is goin' places. Wauw! I mean, WOW!!! Thank you for shedding light on this subject. I'll follow you anywhere, Timmer. You and your little red SSHE book. You OBVIOUSLY...know more about poker than any of us.

Did I mention wow?

On page 90 of SSHE winning with expert play 2+2 publishing2004 Author Ed Miller instructs

those hands being recomended are mid pairs and suited Aces

furthermore on page 91 miller instructs:

have a nice day Studying many of the fine 2+2 books residing on your book shelves

Yes, but spend a nice day thinking about your poker game, Lego.

is this not the beginners questions forum?

I got one for you guys. Tash, you might like this one too.

I played a guy HU yesterday, who played 97/3 in position and 98/3 oop. His 3betting and raising range only contained pocket pairs. His fold to cbet was about 17% and fold to 2nd barrel even lower. He had low frequencies for flop and turn aggression, but his river aggression frequency was 45%, meaning he bet or raised nearly half of all rivers we saw. Being a station/no-fold-em meant there were a lot of rivers. His bets in general were only made with a pair or better, and of all his types of bets, the 2nd barrel for pot and the river pot/overbet/pot-sized raise, were the strongest. With a weak or drawing hand he would often bet the minimum (particularly after making a PSB the previous street).

This guy ran really good against me. I paid him too much but there were big stretches of hands where he'd end up, regardless of our two starting cards, with a better hand than me. I had to make a lot of folds. I did pick off a bluff or two of his (in places where it made sense), and get a large amount of value out of quite a few hands that a better opponent wouldn't call 3 streets with. I lost a bi to him during our first match, he left for a while, then stacked him later when he came back. Due to his super loose style I still lost money to rake (rake was leaving the table at a rate of over 45bb/100 at some points).

Anyway, assume you're playing this guy, and assume he's going to make your life difficult when you're OOP by frequently calling, taking over the betting if you check at any time, and still probably raising you on any scary river. He limps to you and you have the option. Any hand you raise here to 4x or 5x the BB he will call and play postflop with you. If you check and check the flop he will bet approx 25% of the time (that's his steal limped pot stat).

The question is what hands would you raise here pre (oop)? What you would check behind, what you plan on donking into him with for value that you check behind, and any other considerations you would want to make for your postflop play vs this guy.

I settled on several adjustments but I want to hear some other opinions, and I think it's a good thought experiment for a beginner to deal with being OOP to a guy playing any two. Actually playing such an opponent is a great first-hand demonstration of how much it can suck to be OOP, even against someone who plays in very questionable ways.