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08-05-2012, 05:56 PM
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#1
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stranger
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3
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1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
Hello, I'm kind of new to poker and would really appreciate any advice on what I should do on the river or how you would've played this hand from the start.
Short-handed loose-passive game with effective stacks of ~$50.
Villain in the hand is sort of a table captain (telling everyone how bad they played their hands and exactly how he would have played it) and plays pretty straightforward. I've played with him a couple of times. He only raises good hands and limps small pairs, small Axs, suited connectors, and some broadway hands. From experience, villain doesn't bluff very often but will bet about 2/3 to full pot with monsters and air.
Hero is dealt Qs8h in the BB
UTG limps, Villains limps, 2 folds, Button limps, SB completes, Hero checks.
His range preflop is something like 66-22,A8s-A2s,KTs-K9s,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,43s,QTo +,JTo.
Flop ($10): Qd3c2d
SB checks, Hero bets $5, UTG folds, Villain calls, Button folds, SB folds.
He never slowplays in multiway pots and doesn't overplay top pair hands. He will call with most of his pairs and draws (rarely raising combo/nut flush draws).
Turn ($20): As
Hero checks, Villain bets $5, Hero calls.
I didn't bet the turn because I felt I would only get action from better hands and good draws.
River ($30): Ad
Hero checks, Villain bets $10, Hero ?
He normally checks behind hands with some showdown value like 66-44 or 43s. And I think he bets bigger with a flush or better, but can make a smaller value bet with a straight, trips, or even a Queen.
Do we c/c or c/f? Is c/r all-in a good option?
I appreciate your responses. Thank you!
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08-05-2012, 06:03 PM
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#2
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Who killed me?
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Howard Lederer's pocket
Posts: 4,506
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
Quote:
Originally Posted by pagliacci
Villain in the hand is sort of a table captain (telling everyone how bad they played their hands and exactly how he would have played it)
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This suggests that he may think he is the table captain but is everything but. If he was sensible he would keep his mouth closed and encourage the fish.
I probably call the river given the odds and that there is only two aces unaccounted for.
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08-05-2012, 08:33 PM
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#3
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The Situation
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: See PG&C Thread. @IsoAcq
Posts: 7,636
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
Raise.
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08-05-2012, 09:27 PM
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#4
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 5,388
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
I think there's a good chance he has you crushed here with trips (not a flush), as his bets are on the small size. Suited wheel cards like A4s and A5s had a gutshot and overcard on the flop. I presume he'd call half pot on the flop with the gutterball, and then he's betting for value when he makes top pair and he knows you have Qx.
The pot lays odds of 4-1 on the end, so you only need the best hand 20% of the time to break even. If villain is bluffing more often than 1 in 5 times, you could raise, but I can't see how he ever calls with worse than Q8.
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08-06-2012, 12:49 AM
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#5
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 16,837
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
Just fold. Basically everything hit, so much so that it's hard to come up with a single hand he could have called with on the flop that isn't beating you now. He has also made a bet with sizing designed to be called. He wants you to call.
Checkraising would be a bluff of course. I wouldn't try it. There is a significant chance he has a monster hand. Your c/r also looks suspicious because it would be a weird way to play a legit hand. On the river he has busted hands like never and will probably opt to check behind with something like QT, so checking to him probably wouldn't be a good option with a big hand.
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08-06-2012, 06:27 AM
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#6
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old hand
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 4betting for information
Posts: 1,632
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
From the way you described the villain, it feels like he never has Qx here.
He tries to rep an ace on the turn, then a flush on the river? So weird, I would definitely call here. The river feels like a value bet from a flush, but the information you get from a 4:1 call seems worth it imo. He might be turning 3x and 2x into a bluff, as well as busted straight draws.
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08-06-2012, 06:49 AM
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#7
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The Situation
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: See PG&C Thread. @IsoAcq
Posts: 7,636
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
Hero has no air in his range; villain is almost always value betting here, and probably not a flush. Villain will likely fold trips. Raise.
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08-06-2012, 07:11 AM
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#8
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old hand
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 4betting for information
Posts: 1,632
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
The villain that's described is a retard. Retards don't fold trips imo.
Only aces that make sense are A5 and A4, and there are more xxdd combos than those two hand combos.
Since the villain is repping a polarized range of nuts or nothing here, I'm not a fan of ck/r'ing since it snap folds hands we beat, and gets snap called by hands that have us crushed.
Elaborating on my previous post...
We beat 53, 54, 43, 42. Frankly, that's pretty much it. The river sizing is value city, but to see how the villain played out this hand will prove to be extremely profitable in future hands.
Last edited by TensRUs; 08-06-2012 at 07:21 AM.
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08-06-2012, 10:29 AM
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#9
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journeyman
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 257
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
Ez River fold imo
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08-06-2012, 10:49 AM
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#10
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 16,837
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
Hero has no air in his range; villain is almost always value betting here, and probably not a flush. Villain will likely fold trips. Raise.
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This is just bad analysis. When does villain ever have just trips? He *maybe* has A4 or A5, but even that is unlikely in view of the flop action.
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08-06-2012, 12:35 PM
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#11
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The Situation
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: See PG&C Thread. @IsoAcq
Posts: 7,636
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
I said that's the majority of the top of his range, not that he only has trips. Note that I said Villain will likely fold trips; I did not say villain likely has trips, though it's still possible. He has Q with better kicker too. We are occasionally winning, but by raising, we almost never expose ourselves to a 3bet bluff since our range is relatively uncapped so we win the same amount by raising against those hands.
Retards make retarded folds all the time especially when they try to play good by making sick hero folds and so on. Some players of OP's descriptions will hero fold big hands in these spots. Will need somewhat more precise reads to say, but if he hands reads at all, however badly, he will realize hero has NO AIR in his range, no missed draws. This is a great example of where turning the top of your folding range into a bluff can be good.
Calling here is just getting value towned. If you don't want to raise, then fold.
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08-06-2012, 01:50 PM
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#12
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stranger
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
I ended up folding. Villain showed pocket 77 and said he put me on a hand like 32 or 43  .
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08-06-2012, 04:24 PM
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#13
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old hand
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 4betting for information
Posts: 1,632
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
I see...so he was making blocking bets. lol yeah people do weird stuff dude. At least you got to see his hand.
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08-06-2012, 06:38 PM
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#14
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 16,837
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
Quote:
Originally Posted by pagliacci
He normally checks behind hands with some showdown value like 66-44 or 43s.
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This was somewhat misleading  but if that was your read at the time, that's cool.
Your read after this hand should be "villain is flat out terrible and constantly does stuff that makes absolutely no sense". With that read you can just call down given the odds.
His call of 77 on the flop is beyond awful. Without the information "villain is terrible at poker" it's hard to put him on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TensRUs
I see...so he was making blocking bets. lol yeah people do weird stuff dude. At least you got to see his hand.
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These aren't really blocking bets. They're small value bets.
Villain is one of those guys who "puts someone on a hand" rather than a range and then does whatever is good against that single hand.
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08-06-2012, 08:17 PM
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#15
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stranger
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3
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Re: 1/2 NL Home Game: Weird river spot
I guess he thought, for whatever reason, that I was always barreling the turn with a Queen. Which makes no sense since he is always folding worse pairs unless he turned additional equity.
Had he made a bigger river bet, my decision would've been much easier. I couldn't think of any hands I beat and didn't contemplate a c/r because we were so shallow.
I try to avoid being results-oriented but was really embarrassed after he showed tbh, lol.
Anyway, thank you all for your responses!
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